Sveučilište za gluhe, znakovni jezik i Amerika

0:08⧉ Pozdrav svima, dobrodošli u još jednu epizodu "Druge strane medalje". Danas je opet—ne, opet već dugo nisam, ali današnja epizoda neće biti na hrvatskom. Danas je s nama gospođa Deborah Chen Pichler. Deborah, dobrodošla. Hvala. Ovaj, dogovorili smo se prije: ovaj uvodćemo ovako na hrvatskom, ali prebacitćemo se u nekom trenutku na engleskom. Okej. I možda možemo završiti opet na hrvatskom. Okej, može. So, anyway, to English. So, Deborah is— I have a little bit of an intro here. So, my guest today is Debbie Chen Pichler, a professor of linguistics at Golo Det, is that correct? Golo Det. Golo Det, okay. University in Washington. The world's only university designed for deaf students. She grew up bilingual in English and Taiwanese, learned American Sign Language—ASL abbreviated, yeah—as an adult, and married a Croatian man. So she's been coming to Šibenik and Zagreb for almost 30 years.

1:06⧉ So, yeah, we're going to be talking about a lot of stuff. Okay. Go for it. Let's go for it. So, tell me about your—tell me about the university. When you told me it's like the only university in the world, what does that look like? What do you teach there? How many students? How many professors? Ooh, I don't know how many students. Okay, well, I can— we're small, so the graduating class this year, I think, was somewhere around 275, 300 students. So undergrads, that means we have probably about 1,200, 1,500 undergraduate students, and then graduate students. But altogether, we're a very— we're still a very small university. I teach in the Department of Linguistics, and people say, "Linguistics, but you're all deaf." We're deaf and we're hearing, so all of us sign. That's the— that's the one common denominator: you can't teach linguistics if you don't know how to teach it in American Sign Language.

2:00⧉ And of course, sign language as a language has linguistics. It just— it doesn't have sounds. It has visual, manual components that are similar to what you see in spoken— in spoken language, for the— the sounds and the— we have syllables, you have grammar, you have all those things. So we can study linguistics also for sign language. On campus— so it's interesting because the campus is in Washington, D.C., and you get off metro and it's the hearing world, and then as soon as you step onto campus, you're in the deaf world. And then you have— everyone signs, and you turn off your voice. And, yeah, I like it because it makes me feel like I'm working on a foreign campus. I always kind of wanted to work in another country, and this way I— I kind of am in a different country from 9 to 5 every day, and you work in a different language, in a different culture. The hierarchy is kind of turned upside down. So if you're a hearing person— How so? Well, you're disadvantaged as a hearing person if you didn't grow up in a deaf family, you know? I teach undergraduates, and some of them are from deaf families. They sign super fast, and I always have to be like, "Excuse me? Sorry, say that again? Sorry, sorry, say that again? Wait, say that again?" You know, it's— I'm definitely at a disadvantage. But it's good. I really enjoy that aspect of my job of working in a different language.

3:12⧉ I like that. I like that we're a bilingual university, so you always are throwing around more than one language, which I— More than one sign language or? Spoken— written English and ASL. So a lot of my materials are obviously in written English, and the students read in written English, but we try to have a large signed component. So homework assignments, reports, lots of presentations, of course, in American Sign Language. We don't expect people to speak, because that's really a choice of the deaf person. Some deaf people do speak. Some deaf people don't speak. It's— it's really a matter of personal choice. So that's not expected of anybody, but we do expect them to have a certain level of written— written English. Other sign languages— you would think that we would teach other sign languages, but at the moment we only have one foreign sign language course that we regularly teach, which is Mexican Sign Language. Since we're close to Mexico, we have a large number of Mexican deaf people on campus. And then if somebody visits from France or from Sweden, then they might teach one semester of their home sign language, but we don't have— we don't have that very often, unfortunately. Yeah, so I'm sure a lot of people, myself included, before I had no idea that, like, the sign language varies wildly across the world.

4:24⧉ So, and even— even in the U.S. there are dialects and stuff like that. So I think it's— it's kind of fascinating that the— that the mechanism of language, when translated into, like, movements of your arms and gesticulation, that it also differs. You still have accents. But that's— that's actually normal, that. Yes, it is. You still have accents. You still— I mean, if you have a— you know, I remember some students saying to me, "Oh, you know, like German deaf people, they have kind of like, they don't make the O hand shape, they kind of make it flat like this, so they sign home." Like, you can always tell a German deaf person. Which, I don't know if that's true or not, but people have this impression that they can identify, you know, the European deaf people versus South American deaf person based on the accent that they have in ASL. Wow. Of the ASL. Wow, that's— that's cool. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's fun. That's fun. So, what is the university focused on? I mean, what— what are its field of studies on? Or how should I say it? I mean, you're in the linguistic, but I guess there's, like, maths and— Right. All the regular stuff. That's— that's the whole idea,right? Yes. So it's a full university. So it's— it's a liberal arts university, so we focus a lot on the liberal arts. There's lots of— there's languages, there's English, there's psychology, there's— there's social sciences, and there's the hard

5:37⧉ sciences, or STEM. So we have the whole gamut, which is what distinguishes Galo Det from other programs. So some countries, like in Beijing, in— in China, you have a large number of deaf students at a single university, but they're limited to art, computer science, you know, four or five different majors, say. And other countries might have these kind of specialized programs at a university for deaf people, but they don't have a full university: undergraduate, graduate, and the full sort of gamut of majors that you can— you can select. So even though we're small, we do offer all the majors of a typical liberal arts school in the United States: four-year baccalaureate, and then also the master's and PhD in some of those. So the school is government-funded, if I understand that correctly? It is. It was chartered under Abraham Lincoln, so he signed our charter. And it is— you know how the state school system works in America. Well, you mean the university, or— Right. So if you— Go ahead, yeah, sure. Let's— let's have the abbreviated version. I don't know if it's the same. So if you— I'm in Maryland, so if you are a Maryland inhabitant, you can go to the University of Maryland or any of those other universities in Maryland that count as

6:50⧉ a state school that receive state money for a much smaller tuition fee than, say, the University of Texas or the University of California, where you would be an out-of-state student. So, because there's only one deaf school, we are kind of the state school for all 50 states. So we have students from all over the country, and they pay the lower tuition for us than they would, say, for a— you know, going to an out-of-state school. So we do have students from all 50 states. And we also have a lot of international students because of the fact that, again, there's no other university. So we have a large number of international deaf students who come also. You mentioned Beijing, but that's— they have, like, a normal university with deaf students. Right. Right. And then we have that— also, there's a— in Rochester University in New York, they have a national technical institute for the deaf. So it's— they offer a small number of majors that students can take, but again, it's not the whole university, it's just a program. Right,right. So do you— how long have you been employed there? Ooh, I think it's 24 years, starting this fall. So how did you get into— into the whole, like, thing?

7:52⧉ You— you learned ASL as an adult? I did. How did you come about to enter that field? By mistake. By mistake. You wandered into somewhere— I did. I did. It really was kind of like that. I was a biology major. My father's a biologist, so I— I always wanted to do biology. So I went for biology. I did my— my bachelor's in biology. Wasn't very good at it. You know, I loved it, I had a passion, but I— I definitely wasn't good at biology. So I started taking a lot of foreign languages on the side because those are easy. So I would, you know, take Italian and take German and take French and take, you know, all these— Chinese. And I— they had this American Sign Language class, so in my second to last year I thought, "Well, why not?" Why not? Yeah. So I took two semesters of that, and then I— I decided that I wasn't going to do biology, so I— I added a second major. In America you can choose to take as many majors as you want, so I chose French as my second major. And I used that major to apply for graduate school in linguistics, which I had just learned about. I didn't know about linguistics until my last year. I just thought, "This is what I want to do. It's language and science together that I— nobody told me about this." Very low-visibility field, linguistics. Yeah. But it was too late to do a linguistics major, so I just did French and I applied for graduate schools.

9:07⧉ They all turned me down, except for one, because that one had an ASL lab, and I had mentioned that I had taken ASL. So I— I just got picked because I had two semesters of ASL, and I was talking about— it's very interesting, like, what does bilingualism look like when you have a sign language? What does anything— we know about language development for children who are hearing, who are learning spoken language, but what does it look like for a sign language? It's a whole new modality. And those are the questions it turns out that everybody's asking. So that— that got me into graduate school for linguistics, but I— I didn't plan it. It really just— just worked out that way. And— and how did you get into the school itself? Or did you go to classes there and then you just resumed, like, as a professor or— You mean at Galo Det? Yes. Oh, no, I already signed before. So— so in graduate school, I worked in a deaf lab, and so my lab mates were all— were all deaf, and by the time I graduated, I was able to lecture in ASL. So it was— it was six years of signing with deaf people, and that helped a lot. So tell me about the sign language itself. How— how does it evolve? Is it, like, somehow centrally planned, or is it like— like normal languages, which is basically an anarchy, and then just something pops up as the— as the norm?

10:19⧉ And— Yeah. And, you know, it's— it's funny when you read, I don't know, English text from the 17th century. Wow, it's pretty hard. But Croatian is also— is also the same thing. So when I read something from the 15th century, wow, I can barely, barely read this. Really? Yes, yes. It's totally different. Okay. I mean, you can, but— but there's a lot of weird verbs and— and words and everything. So is— is it something similar to that? Yeah. I really wish that I could read Croatian well enough to— to have that sense of how far away those older texts feel.

10:54⧉ ASL is a relatively new language. We think that it started with the first deaf school that was established and, for the first time, brought deaf children from all over the country to Hartford, Connecticut. And then everybody had these little— maybe you came from a deaf family, and so there was a system you were using at home. Maybe you— you improvised a system with your hearing family. Maybe you were a Native American who— who— they already had a gesture system or sign system they were using across different tribes. Maybe you came from Martha's Vineyard. I don't know if you've heard. I know very much. It's in— Right, off the coast of Massachusetts. Large genetic— genetically— just the genetic— deaf— large proportion of people who have a genetic deafness that just— Oh, really? I didn't know that. From— on Martha's Vineyard. On Martha's Vineyard. So from— from what we understand, people signed all the time because there was such a high number of deaf people there that it wasn't a stigma the way that it was later when they came to the mainland and everybody was hearing, and there was just this small group of deaf people. So they had developed some sort of a sign language that they used, and— and all of that got mixed together and became American Sign Language. We see that happening now. You can see this happening in places more recently, like Nicaragua, for instance, where they— in the 70s—

12:07⧉ established the first deaf school, and the linguists were there, and they documented how this sign language emerged. It really is that everybody brings in what they have. That first group has a sort of signed system which is— is— serves as a language. But the next group of younger children who come in look at that. They have that system, then they take it and they make it different. They make it more systematized, more systematic. They make it more— they add things to it that the first generation deaf children didn't have. So I— we assume that the same thing happened for American Sign Language, but further back. So, you know, they're fairly young languages, still changing a lot, which is— which means that we don't have the same level of systematicity. You know, you can't just write down all the rules of— grammatical rules of ASL and expect them to be the same for all signers. There's still a lot of variability. It's a young language. It's normal for that to happen.

12:56⧉ Ah, so— okay, so it's— it started relatively recently. I mean, historically speaking. Yeah, 300 years. Like, a couple of centuries. Aha, yeah, yeah. 200 years. But it's— we still— we look at these older videos from the 1800s and— and of people signing, and it does, like you said, it looks very interesting. What do you mean, videos from the 1800s? Yeah, so there are— there are some old, old videos from, I guess, the late— late, you know, the early 1900s. Would there be videos already in the early 1900s? I have to think about when Georgia— Oh, yeah, I think yes. There were. But it's, yes, like, like the beginning of the 20th century, sure. Yeah. Yeah. 190-something, yeah. Okay. It's embarrassing that I don't know the dates, but. So there— George Veditz is— It's not like you're a professor. No, I know. That— we leave that to the deaf studies people. There's a whole deaf studies department that does the deaf history. Okay.

13:39⧉ But you watch some of these older videos that you have of— of people signing ASL, and it— it does look archaic. It looks like, wow, that's— the signs seemed really big and— and lots of movement, and they've sort of gotten smaller. A lot of the signs have gotten smaller over time. Like optimizations of— of various sorts,right? Yeah. Apparently that's not— that's not the whole story. We know that now, but we used to think that as signs get older, they— sign languages grow older, they get faster and smaller and smaller and smaller. But that doesn't seem to be quite the whole picture. But— but you do notice. It is noticeably bigger in— in these— these older videos that we— that have been preserved that we look at. So can you— can you try to explain to— to the audience, okay, so how exactly does the sign— sign language work? I mean, do you— do you spell with your hands, or do you have, like, common words? I mean, can you walk us through it? How— how does it actually work? Okay.

14:29⧉ So you do have a— you have in the lex— the lexicon, the vocabulary, you've got normal words, like we have signs for blue and green and red. Then those are just signs, and they're— some of them can be very arbitrary, but a lot of them are strikingly— they look like the thing they represent. They're iconic,right? So"house" looks like"house," and"car" looks like you're driving a car. And then there's other signs that are— that don't look like what they— what they mean. So this is a sign for"meaning," and it doesn't look like anything that looks like meaning.

14:58⧉ And then you also have other types of signs that look to people who don't sign, like gestures. So you can— you can have a person who's sitting comfortably in their chair, or a person who's sleeping, and it just looks like you're acting out that sign. But that's sort of incorporated into the language. It is part of the language. We do finger spells, so that was— that's— that's a point that is maybe— Americans use their fingers to spell words out, like your name, D-E-B-O-R-E-H. Country names, if people aren't familiar with the sign for Croatia, then you have to finger spell it first, and then you— Oh, so countries have— each has their own, like, sign? They— they do. American— American Sign Language had signs for those countries, but a lot of them are not. The— the trend now is to replace the native signs— our— our ASL signs with the signs from that country. So Croatia— Croatia does still get signs sometimes like this. It's really this. So your hand doesn't twist, but we don't have that type of sign in ASL, so we modify it to fit our phonology,right? It's the same way that in Croatian, when you borrow a word from English, you change the pronunciation so it fits the Croatian pronunciation. Right. So ASL does that also, but other signs are more obvious. So we used to have the sign for China, or Korea, or Japan.

16:09⧉ Maybe they're kind of offensiveright now,right? Not very key anymore. So those got dropped, and people were happy to move to China and Japan and Korea,right? Yes, it is a little bit. I mean, or like, you know, we used to sign Germany like this, and some people say, "Oh, that's so offensive to Germans. It's the eagle," you know. Although, you know, the Germans sign Germany this way. So I— I don't know. We— we are trying to switch out our— our country names for the— the sign language from that country, their own name. That's— that's a trend that's been going on for maybe the last 30 years. So you finger spell a lot of things. And for some reason we have— we don't have a lot of native signs for fruits and vegetables, so a lot of our fruits and vegetables are signed, which is odd, because most sign languages do have signs for that. If you travel as an American, people always say, "Oh, please don't finger spell." You Americans finger spell so much. It's so hard to understand, because other sign— other sign languages don't tend to finger spell as heavily as we do. So how do they handle when you want to say"Zagreb" or— or something? I mean,"Šibenik" or whatever. Yeah. So Croatia— I mean, you know, you have a— you— for instance, Croatia, let's say. You have a hand— a hand spelling— a finger spelling alphabet. You have two, actually. There's a two-handed version that older deaf people use and a one-handed version that looks more like— looks like

17:21⧉ ASL that younger people use. So you can spell things out, but I don't know. Like, for instance, in France where I've spent more time in— in sign language circles, the common criticism that I get, they say,"You're so oppressed by hearing people, you know, all this finger spelling. That's basically English." I say, "Well, what do you do if you want to sign like'Oreo cookie'?" You know, we would sign "Oreo cookie," O-R-E-O cookie. They're like, "Well, you would say—" I'm like, "Well, that— that looks more like spoken language to me. Just mouthing'Oreo' while you sign'cookie.'" So I think each country, though, just has their way of getting that information across. It is true that finger spelling requires you to know how to spell the word. So if your literacy isn't great in a country for deaf people, because they don't have options to go to school or they don't have the same educational opportunities, that— that's— that's a reason why people might not like finger spelling. It just feels like you have to be able to read very fast.

18:13⧉ But I— you know, it— it— it is something that is part of ASL, and the better you sign, the— the really good signers can finger spell really well, and the people who aren't good signers— like, I am a terrible finger speller. I just can't finger spell very well. I can't read it very well. It's always hard for me. So it's a hard— it's a hard part of the language to learn, which, you know. What— what kind of advice would you— would you give to parents that find out that their children are deaf or— or very— very severely impaired, and how should they, you know? I— I think it's probably best to act when— when they're young. I mean, not necessarily curing the— the deafness if possible, butright away go to sign language. And I— I mean, I assume. So what would you advise people? I— I would advise them to— I mean, ideally, every deaf child would have exposure to sign language from birth, from early on, so that you can learn a spoken language, but it's not accessible to a deaf child. So it's— it's a nice idea to give them a sign language which is accessible to them. They can visually access that language. And your brain doesn't really care whether you're learning a sign language or a spoken language. So, you know, that early— that first year of life, you're— you're— you're building a lot of the linguistic foundation.

19:28⧉ And babies are amazing pattern finders, so their brain is looking for patterns in the input, looking— looking— looking for all kinds of phonological patterns, sound patterns, or syntax patterns, just anything that looks like there is a pattern going on. They— they learn that. And if you can give them those patterns in a visual— in a visual way, then they sort of build that foundation, and that foundation can then bring them to other languages so they can learn spoken language, which is more challenging a lot of times. You can't— you can get a cochlear implant, but you can't get one when you're born. You have to wait a while before you're old enough,right? So that whole time you're just— the brain is just waiting, waiting. So— so how— how could parents teach the child if they don't know the sign language? Because, I mean, the whole idea of, like, children that can hear, they hear from mom and dad and— and everyone speaking, and I think this makes it on a whole other level difficult. So how do they— how do they overcome that? Yeah, no, I mean, that's the sticking point. Especially for the first child, I mean. Right. When you're not into it and you— you were never prepared for it. Oh, and it's— you're— you're so busy being a new parent too. Yeah, and with all the challenges that— that come with— with a child, it's— it's— Exactly. It's insane, yeah. Yeah. No, it is insane. And— and that's— that's— that's our current project is— is working with hearing parents who have a deaf child and

20:43⧉ they don't have any experience with sign language prior. We also have a system in the United States that's not— it's not great at ensuring that a deaf child can— that a family of a deaf child can get services in American Sign Language. You know, you— you might not have a doctor who's very positive about that, and they may try to steer you away, say, "Well, we need to get a cochlear implantright away. You need to start with a hearing aid. You need to—" and nobody mentions anything about sign language. Or they might actually straight out tell you, "Don't sign, because signing will be too easy for your baby," and then they won't try hard enough to hear, which is kind of ridiculous because language acquisition is supposed to be easy. Or you really want to sign. You have people around you who support you to sign, but there's no resources. You know, that's— that's common too.

21:24⧉ Yeah, that's— that's— that's a tough nut to crack. I— I would say that from the— we have this seven-year program now working with hearing parents who don't sign super, super well, and we look at them and how they learn ASL. We track it week by week, and then we look at their children and we track their English and their ASL, because most of them have implants, they're learning both. And I have to say, they're doing pretty well. These— these are kids who are up to five years old, so it's two years old to five years old. And you would— you— we— we have often heard the— I think it's a myth that, "Oh, hearing parents can't bring up a deaf child signing," because they're— they're learning it as a second language. It's— you know, imagine you learning Greek and now you have to teach your child in Greek. You know, people always use this analogy saying it's— it's just— it's almost impossible. You— you won't be able to provide that rich language input, which is true. They're not providing the same kind of input that a— a deaf signing parent can provide. But kids are still doing well. And I think it's a combination of the fact that you're giving them access to something. It may not be perfect ASL, but you're giving them early access. And parents who are into ASL, who— who really believe in it, they also look for deaf adults. They look everywhere. They try to find people to come into their home so that the baby's not only getting, you know, second language signing from their parents, they also have deaf people coming in, and so they— that can sort of boost the input a

22:37⧉ little bit. And these first five years, the results that we've had are really good. And then you look at Croatia. I have a— I have a wonderful colleague working at the University of Zagreb, Marina Milković, and she works with hearing parents also who have deaf children, and she has a project where she interviewed them and asked, "What do you wish that you knew about Husavljevac?" And they all say things like, "We wish that someone had told us that— that it existed. We didn't even know. We didn't find out until two years later." Right. "We started learning, and now— now my child is progressing and learning, but nobody told us. You know, we didn't know." And— and that awareness that there is a sign language, that is not a bad thing. It's a good thing for your child, I think is— we struggle with that in America, and it's still a big struggle around the world too. So that's— that's the biggest— the biggest first hurdle is just that awareness. A sign language is not going to slow down your child. It's not going to make it harder for them to learn the spoken language. In fact, it's the inverse. It will help you— it will actually help your child access language that they might not have access to until they have that cochlear implant. So does the— today's technology of YouTube and— and stuff like that, does that help for— for the development? It— it seems like it would be awesome because it's video and— Right. So I assume there's a lot of stuff on YouTube or specialized— There is.

23:49⧉ —video sites and— and stuff. I don't know about— about Husavljevac, but for ASL, definitely. There's a ton of stuff on YouTube about sign languages, not all very high quality, so that's— that's the important thing. As a parent, you don't necessarily know what's accurate and what's not. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So it's— it's good to go through, I don't know, a university that has an American Sign Language program, or here it would be the University of Zagreb that has the Husavljevac program, to— to ask what their recommendations would be for YouTube or for— for online resources. But most of the parents that we work with do say that that was their major way— that was a major source of ASL knowledge for them, is looking things up on the dictionary on their phone, you know, or— or watching videos to learn as much vocabulary as possible. And— and there— there— there is a lot out there, and that's one way that you can get that information to parents everywhere. It just— it does need to be good quality. That's— that's important. So— so what are the— the, like, the leading— the leading causes of— of deafness in— in children? Is it, like, genetic or some kind of infection early on, or— or— or is it, like, a mishmash of everything? In the past, we had waves of deaf people because of rubella or because of other illnesses that— that affected infants and gave them a very, very high temperature, and then when the temperature would subside,

25:04⧉ they had become deaf. So in the past, there was a— a lot of deaf people who were deaf for that reason, because of illness. And that still happens, but of course less and less as we— we have less and less of this. Yes, medicine and stuff, yes. Right. But the— I— I think the WHO has figures on worldwide, the largest number of— the largest causes of deafness remains genetic, so it remains something it's just— you're— you're just born with that. There's all kinds of etiologies. There's all kinds of different ways that you can be deaf. You can be missing a cochlea. You can have different— you can have different, you know, nerve issues that cause you to be deaf. You can— there's— there's just lots of reasons why you could be deaf, but a lot of them are— are hereditary, if I'm not mistaken. So that's— you're born— you're born deaf in that case, and— and the— the— the issues then for learning language begin already at the beginning from birth. So that's— that's why it's such a critical issue to try to get visual language to these kids as early as possible. So I assume it's not, like, totally binary. There's also where— where they're, like, their hearing is severely impaired for, like, I don't know, they hear 10%. Right. Or something. How— how does that work? Does it— can they still, like, learn the— the spoken language, or do they use

26:17⧉ a mix of sign for— for other deaf people, or? So how— how does that go? Yeah, I— I mean, so that's— that's a good thing you brought that up. I should mention that when you say someone's deaf, especially as an adult, that's— that's an identity label, so that's not. Yes. An audio— audiological label necessarily. We wouldn't say that if you have this much decibel hearing, then you are deaf, but anything beyond that, you're not. You can actually hear quite well, say, and be able to talk on the phone, but still consider yourself deaf. It's a— it's an identity, and it's the choice to use American Sign Language as your— as a primary mode of communication. But I think for children, a lot of parents that we work with, for instance, their parent— their kids passed the hearing— newborn hearing test, and they were acquiring spoken language. They could hear some, but they didn't hear well enough that they were acquiring the language as well as they could. They didn't have easy access to spoken language. And, you know, some kids— and hearing aid will do the trick. You get a hearing aid, you don't have to have any invasive surgery, and— and that— that gets them on the road to spoken language, which is great. You can't always have the hearing aid on, though, so, you know, sometimes you have to take it off for the— there's some emergency, you can't wear it, and for those times, it's still always nice to have a sign language. So we— we still encourage parents of— of hard of hearing children to still learn the sign language because you'll need it

27:28⧉ at some point, and it's nice to have that in the family. But it is tricky. I mean, a lot of families say that they have older children, so the deaf child is not their first child. They have experience. But the older children say, "Oh, I want you to use your voice. Don't— don't just sign. Use your voice." So the parents are then trying to voice in English and sign at the same time. And that gets difficult when it's okay with one word, two words, but when you have a sentence, you know, it's like trying to use two languages with two different grammars at the same time. You can physically do it, but it's very hard to be signing the subject as you are speaking the verb, or vice versa. You know, that's— that's— Right,right. Yeah, it's mental gymnastics that— that not many people can do well. So we encourage parents to just turn your voice off and sign. If you— you can voice also, but sometimes every once in a while, it's good to have, like, a— a plan during the day, maybe that during bath time when the child can't wear their cochlear implants, or bedtime when they've taken off the cochlear implants, to— to just focus on signing without speaking, to have a little bit more opportunity to— to practice the ASL grammar. But it— it is a lot to ask of— of hearing parents. It's a lot. Right. And we recognize that. So is— is lip reading even a thing? It's a thing. Sure, it's a thing. I mean, you get a lot of information off the face.

28:40⧉ Even hearing babies focus on the face for— for the first. I mean, I'm— I'm looking at your lipsright now. I was thinking about the question. I mean, how? It's— it's— it's— it looks crazy, but maybe with— maybe with— With some residual hearing, maybe. So you— you, like, piece it together and— I think if you have enough hearing, you can. I mean, the— the numbers that we always see, that we teach in our classes, that you— is that you can see about 40% of English on the lips, because you can't see where the tongue is, you can't see if something is voiced or not voiced, but you can see the— the— the rounding of the lips, you can see some movement inside the mouth a little bit. But 40% is less than half,right? So if you're only depending on the visual cues of— of lip reading, it's not going to get you very far. So that's the— that's— that is an issue with— with telling a child, "Well, you know, we don't need to sign because you can hear a little bit and you can lip read." Okay, but then if it gets a little bit noisy, then you can't— you know, now all of a sudden you can't depend on the residual hearing that you had, and the lip reading at 40% is not enough to get you— to get you to understand. You've tried,right? Turning down the TV and you look and you see how much you can guess. Yeah, I— or you— you watch someone from afar, you don't hear them, so. Right, not much. Yeah, that's— Totally un— unknowable. Right,right. I mean, I'm— I'm sure there— there are— I'm sure— I'm sure my deaf students, for instance, are better at

29:52⧉ lip reading than the average person, hearing person, but it— it's just not enough to get you the full communication. So it's— it's not a— it's— by itself, it's not a great strategy. Right,right. So when I was researching a bit, would you like to talk about the Milan 1880? Oh, you did your homework? Oh, good. Yes, yes. I mean, I— I read about it. What's— so it says— it says here, "So the Congress in Milan declared that the oral method was superior and effectively banned sign language from deaf— deaf schools. Only the— the UK and the American delegations were— were totally opposed— opposed to that," which is good. So it took— it took 130 years until Vancouver, 2010, to— for them to actually, you know, officially apologize. Yes. So what— what— what was that about? Yeah, no, that was very influential. That was— that changed deaf education all over. My understanding is that in Croatia there was a— there was a— a deaf-educated elite before them that were using sign language and they were highly educated. They were able to go to school and sign, and— and so, you know, things worked out. And then after 1880, all that switched over to oralism. Oh, really? Yeah. And so now— now we're stuck in a situation where really it's very difficult. So it did some damage. It did a ton of damage. It did a ton of lasting damage, 1880 until now.

31:05⧉ Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it was— it was a big enough deal that that conference came back around to Italy for the first time since 1880. Was it the— well, it was— it was over 100 years,right? And it came back to Italy again last year. So last year was that— that same conference. It was in Rome, and it was this time they were trying to make amends for all those more than 100 years of oralism that— that hurt so many deaf children. So they— they planned a schedule— they scheduled a conference that was very, very heavy on the sign language content to sort of apologize for what had happened all those years. And it was— it was very moving, actually, because, you know, that's where— that's where this— this whole movement started, was in— is in Italy, and they were trying to say, "This— this is where it ends." You know, we recognize now that just saying that all children need to be oral is— is such a— a wrong-minded way to go about deaf education, because it doesn't take into account the children who really aren't hearing enough to learn the spoken language.

32:03⧉ And I— I— I went— they asked me to speak about the— the hearing families and the research that we have, because that's— that's still a big myth, I think, that if you're hearing, you can't learn a sign language well enough— well enough to support your child in a sign language. But— but they do. Our parents are doing that. So it's been an about— it's been about face, a 180-degree turn in the— in terms of accepting that sign language actually is the best way of raising a child. Oralism works for some kids. I mean, some kids really— they— they take off and it's great, and they learn to speak, and they— they— they function very well in the hearing world. But you know, a hearing aid or a— a cochlear implant, it's exhausting to use that all day. So we— in our previous project, we worked with a lot of kids who had cochlear implants, and they were constantly taking them off. We'd say, like, "So why do you take off your hear— you know, your— your— your cochlear implant?" Maybe it's uncomfortable or something. It's just you have to work really hard. You still have to work hard to understand spoken language. You can hear, but you still have to focus a lot, and people get kind of exhausted after a long day of doing that all day. And you can hear the background noise and things. You know, one 7-year-old said to me, "It's just quieter when I take it off." It's nicer. You don't like all the noise. Yeah, it's nicer. So it's just— So you mentioned— so is a— is a deaf child or

33:16⧉ person that has never heard, is it even possible for them to— to learn, like, the spoken? Can they train their— I mean, they— they have the— the voice cords and everything, assuming everything is okay. Right. Can they even learn to— to speak? They can. I mean, a lot of deaf people do choose to speak. I mean, why should— it— it shouldn't even be either/or,right? Right,right. No, wait, it's really an and now. So now— now we're trying to focus on you can get an implant, that's great. If it works for you, that's great, but please also learn sign language. So it should be sign language. Yeah, that— that— that makes sense. Right,right. Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of colleagues who— who speak beautifully, and— and— and they've— all their lives they were speaking because their parents told them, "But you know, you speak beautifully, you speak just like a hearing person." But the problem is you speak to people like this, they don't know you're deaf, and they speak back and they expect you to understand them, and you can't understand them because you can't hear them well enough. Right. So they— a lot of adults that I know have just decided, "I'm not going to use my voice because it sets up the wrong expectation for communication, and I'm tired of explaining to everybody,'Oh, no, actually I'm deaf.'" And they say, "What? But you speak so beautifully." Yes, I know. Yes, yes, I know, I know. You know, "Please look at me, don't turn away, don't— don't— don't talk to your phone." So it— it— I— I imagine that must be exhausting to have to explain that over and over and over again.

34:27⧉ So the easier thing is to just not use your voice and— But when speaking to, quote,"regular people," I— I assume— Hearing people. What— what? Hearing people. Hearing people,right. Okay. So how do you— as a deaf person, you really kind of need to speak,right? Yeah, well, we have these little computers in our pockets now. Ah, the computers. Yeah, so you just— you just type. You know, texting is used a lot to sort of communicate back and forth. Everybody knows how to type now, so that works. If that's— if there's a failure of that, there's just pen and pencil and a piece of paper. People— people just write back and forth. That's always been a traditional way for hearing people to communicate with a deaf person if there's no sign language, if they can't use the sign language. Gesturing. It's an interesting natural experiment. Right outside of Gallaudet University, we have a food hall. So it's called— it's called Union Market, and it's, you know, what— you know, like, you walk in and it's this huge old warehouse that's been converted to all these little stands of interesting food,right? So there's lots of people there. It's packed all during the day. Everyone's buying food and eating and talking. Is it like a mess hall or like— it's like a— It's like a market of some— It's like a market. It's like a market. But on— on campus? No, it'sright off campus. Ah, okay, okay. So nearby. Yeah. So it's the hearing world, but it'sright next to Gallaudet.

35:38⧉ So Gallaudet people are constantly there, and it's very interesting to see how the communication happens because— Ah, so it's like a fusion going on. It's a fusion, yeah, but it's one that— that is sustained over a long period of time. So all these hearing people that sell food there, they've learned some basic signs, like "How many?" or "Thank you," or the numbers. Yeah, that makes sense, of course. Right, and then there's always paper available so that anybody can write. Sometimes they have tablets available. And it's— it's doable. You don't necessarily have to sign really well to be able to— to take an order from a deaf person for a sandwich,right? And so it— it— there's different— if we— we sort of, like, broaden how we expect communication to look like and say, "Well, it may not be super, super fast and super efficient, but it gets the work done," then— then you can have very successful communication even with that language barrier. So definitely the phones help a lot and— and pencil and pen. Sure, sure. And the basic gestures. So what's like the— the round— like the approximate number of— of deaf people, like the percentage in a— in a— in a population? Is it— is it substantial or is it— is it like total minority? How does that go? I read— I read someplace that it's about 1 in 1,000 birthsright now. Okay. So— so it's a— it's a— it's a— it's a small but not, you know, minuscule percentage

36:49⧉ once you have a country as big as the United States. Yes, it— it adds up,right? Right. But I mean, how many people are— how many people are going to use a sign language? We still don't know how many signers there are. We're guessing maybe 2% of the American population, according to the latest estimates that we have. Really? That's— that's quite a lot. Yeah, it's more than— If it's 0.1% and 2%, no. Well, 2% of the signing population because you have a lot of hearing people who are signing now. So maybe you're a hearing child from a deaf parent, so that's— that's one reason. Maybe you're a hearing sibling of a deaf child or you're a hearing parent of a deaf child,right? Or— or an aunt or— or— Yeah, so there's a lot of hearing people. Right. And then there's— then ASL is just really popular as a language. It has displaced German now as one of the more— most common— commonly taught languages in the high school and the college systems in America. So you have a lot of people who just like to sign, want to sign, and— and learn sign language in school. So 2%— about 2%. That was— I think that was from— That blows my mind. I— I never would have thought. I mean, it sounds a lot, but I guess it's not even that much, but yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So do you know how many other signing languages do you know, like— Oh, I'm so sad.

38:01⧉ Apart from ASL? I— I would love— yeah, no, I'm really— I have a hard time learning other sign languages. Spoken languages are not so difficult, but sign languages are really difficult for me. I— I've tried really hard. I've taken two classes in Japanese sign language, so that's probably the one that I'm most comfortable with, is Japanese sign language, because it doesn't look like ASL. If you— I tried French sign language. It looks— there's too many words that look similar to our sign language, and then I just kind of— I can't separate them. And Croatian sign language is the same thing.

38:31⧉ The French kind of— the French set up— the French missionaries set up deaf schools all over Europe and all over South America. So they— they left some influence from the French sign language. So they're— these sign languages are genetically related. So you can see that they have resemblance. They're obvious— they're not the same language. They're— they're— they're not mutually intelligible, but you can sort of pick out things that are similar, and those seem to trip me up more. Japanese sign language, on the other hand, is— is typologically very, very different, and that was enough to— to make it easier to learn. I'm not very good at it. And then the other thing is that we have a lot of international conferences that work on sign languages. So I just came from one last week in Amsterdam that happens every year, every two years, where you have people doing experimental work or theoretical work on— on sign languages all over the world. And we have traditionally always had these conferences through interpreters, but interpreting is expensive. So we have been encouraged to all learn something called international sign. It's not Esperanto, but it is something that, at least in Europe, it's a very good way to communicate across different sign languages. Okay, so there is something to, like, standardize it across? It's not standardized, but it— it— there are certain principles where you lean more on explaining things.

39:43⧉ It's like, you know, you wouldn't say the word"scout." Even if you have the sign"scout" in your country, you would say, you know,"camping," and you have a backpack, and you walk, you walk, you walk, and you have a little kerchief tied around your neck. And so you do these sort of elaborate explanations of what a scout looks like until the person says, "Ah, okay, I know what you— what you're talking about." And then you can say, "I'm going to sign this from now on to save time,"right? So these principles are that you have to explain and negotiate meaning a lot, and once you've negotiated that meaning, then it's a little bit easier for people to understand. It's a new way of communicating for us. In America— we're a big country— we— we don't like to learn other people's languages, and so we've really resisted. We keep saying,"Yeah, but everybody knows ASL. Why can't we just use ASL at these international conferences?" And everyone else says, "Well, that's just like what you do with English. We all have to speak English now in the hearing world. Why shouldn't we all do American sign language, you know, in the deaf world?" This should— it should be more equitable. We should do something that everybody can learn. So— But I mean, it— it is a fair point. If everyone— if the lingua franca is— is English now, so— Yeah, but when English became the lingua franca, we didn't really have any discussions about linguistic imperialism or equity or accessibility,right? We weren't talking about those things. But now, in 2020, we are talking about those things. So we are at the point in the sign language world where we can choose what the lingua franca is going to be, and it can be

40:57⧉ an informed decision. So I think that— But isn't that— isn't that mostly, like, organic? No one chose French before, like, the franca bit. That is true. Because it was, like, a big power and Napoleon, and I'm not exactly sure of the history, but— Right,right. So I— I believe that kind of comes naturally, organically. It's organic. Not something someone said, "It's going to be English from now on." That is true, but it was— it's organic within the— the— the strata of people who— who had access to French,right? So you would have had tons of people during the time that French was lingua franca, or tons of people now, today, when English is lingua franca, who don't have the same access to English as, say, a person in Western Europe,right? So those people are disenfranchised then. They're not going to have the same seat at the table because they didn't have the opportunities to learn that language. And if we choose ASL, that works really well, again, for Western European deaf people who have had English in school and who have— who can fingerspell in English and lip-read a little bit in English. But then in Asia, where they haven't had the same opportunities for— to encounter English or the same level of English exposure, or for kids who just didn't have the chance to go to school and learn English at all, that's not— that's not an accessible language for them.

42:07⧉ So it's a lingua franca for all these people, but not all these people. And that's— I think that that's what— where the conscious decision not to use ASL is coming in. It's the assumption that, yeah, it can work great, but only for a small minority of privileged deaf people. Oh, okay, I understand. And hearing people automatically, because we— we— we have a lot of access to English,right? So you're disproportionately benefiting this group, and you're disenfranchising a large group. So if we have the choice now to say, "Hmm, ASL has been working well, but only for a small percentage of the— of the— of the people," so we're not going to— we're going to consciously not take that decision. And we're also going to not take British sign language, which is another big sign language. We're going to— Of course it's different,right? It's totally different. I don't want to speak British sign language at all. Good, good. I'd be— I'd be disappointed if you said, "Ah, it's—" No, no, no, of course it's completely different. Good. There's a country where I lip-read. I look at the interpreters and I look at their lips like, "Oh, that's what she's saying." Yeah, I don't— the— the— the sign language is very different.

43:00⧉ Yeah, so— I— I— international sign is just— it seems like a more fair option for— for everybody. So that's— that's where we're headed. So— but how— how good is it? Is it— how widespread is it? I mean, is there any hope of it actually being the lingua franca, or is it just, like, Esperanto nowhere pretty much? Yeah. Oh, I don't know. My father-in-law learned Esperanto. So I actually know one Esperanto speaker. Yes, I— I used to think that it wouldn't work because you don't have a fixed vocabulary. Like I said, you negotiate a lot of this meaning. So it's like you and I would set up a— an agreed vocabulary, and then as soon as I leave you, that— that sort of system would collapse, and then I would have to build it again with the next person, negotiate all over again. And people pointed out the fact that, you know, you as a Croatian person, if you were to use international sign, you— you can borrow a lot of signs from American sign language, and it looks great. People say,"Yeah, that's international." But me as an American, if I try to insert all these signs from ASL, people say, "No, no, no, no, no. You— you Americans are doing that all the time. You just use your own sign language. That's not fair." So we do feel a certain pressure as Americans to avoid the signs that look like American sign language, to avoid the perception that we are just using our own sign language and cheating,right? So there's all these problems, and I used to think because of those problems, it wasn't a viable option.

44:13⧉ Like, it's not a real language. Nobody learns IS from birth like a natural language,right? Right. But I have to say, the last three or four years of conferencing that I've gone to, most of which is here in Western Europe, it works remarkably well. It is becoming more standardized in the interpreting field. So the interpreters who come and are international sign interpreters, they kind of, you know, they have a certain training that they— that they follow. They are being more systematic about it, and it— it seems to work. And now it's just like the rest of us now that have to— have to pick it up and have to learn how to give our talks in IS instead of our— our native sign language. And we're— we're working on it. I've committed to giving as many of my talks as I can in IS and not in American sign language. Was it difficult to— to learn, or did you learn it from— from way back? I— I— I— I was glued to YouTube, just watching as many videos as I could, because they're all different, you know? And then there— some of the IS interpreters are very friendly, and they will— they'll say, "Just, okay, what signs do you want to know? Tell me, tell me. I'll help you— I'll help you explain." And so I learned a lot from the interpreters. And then you— if you hang out with deaf people and you go out to dinner, then everybody's just signing in international signs, so that helps a lot too. Yeah, I— I— I think we have the— the typical American attitude of, "Oh, but everybody can already speak our language.

45:26⧉ Why do we need to learn one?" And— and I was guilty of that as well. But I— I like it. I— I feel like I'm— I feel good signing international sign. I feel less imperialistic. Good, good. I think it's the way of the future. I— I— I'm a believer. I really am. Yeah, but it makes sense to— to standardize that kind of thing. I don't know. Right,right. But— but not as ASL,right? It's something else. Okay. Can you tell me about— about the implants, the cochlear, and are there any other kind of implants? And how— how does it even work, and what does it do? I mean, I— I know that the technology, I remember it from the— like the'70s,'80s, there was always something people that were hard of hearing that— that would— that would use. So I assume that technology has gotten better. It has— Maybe they're smaller, more comfortable. So can you talk about the— the devices and the technology behind them? Yeah. So I don't know a lot about the technology. I'm on— like I said, I'm on the linguistic side, and not on the— the, say, the audiology side. Okay, but you'll know something, of course. Right. My limited understanding is that you— the— the cochlear implants that we have— and— and you'reright, the technology is changing all the time, so it gets better and better. You have the— the implant itself goes— is— is in the cochlea.

46:40⧉ So it used to be that whatever cilia, you know, the little hairs that sort of conduct sound— sound waves into— into the— the auditory nerve, that they— if you're born without them, say, or you're born with too few of them, or whatever it is, that the— the— the— this implant is inserted into the cochlea, and it sends out the electric signals that mimic that same effect,right? So it— when you hear through a cochlear implant, speech doesn't sound like speech sounds to us, but you're trained— you train your brain to understand speech. And in the beginning, it may not be very intelligible, but with training, with calibration, then you can start to understand what speech sounds like. Music doesn't sound like it sounds to— to the natural ear, but you can recognize that as music, and people enjoy music.

47:24⧉ It does have a battery. So the— the— the— the part that you see people putting on the outside, that with— with the magnet, that— that— that part is external, but the— it— it— it attaches to the head, and it works with the— the part that's internal. The internal part has a battery, so it used to, again, be that you had to replace the battery every so often, or maybe there would be a part that— that failed and you had to— so there— there was always the risk that you would have to have multiple surgeries to maintain that cochlear implant. My understanding— and again, I am so not— Okay, so— so there is surgery involved. Oh, yes. No, it's a very invasive surgery. And in the past, whatever residual hearing you had, you would lose when you had a cochlear implant because by implanting it, you would destroy whatever— whatever residual hearing there is. Oh, wow. So it— it could even be risky? So you had to make a choice,right? Parents had to make a choice: is— are we going to go with the hearing that this child has and maybe learn sign language and work with that, or are we going to hope that the cochlear implant will work very well but sacrifice whatever residual hearing they have? So children would get one implant, say, and try to see how that worked out before they got the second one. It was— it was not unusual to be staggered like that, just to make sure. Nowadays, I— I— I just spoke to somebody last month when I went to a conference that had a lot of cochlear implant users,

48:35⧉ and they said that you don't have to necessarily destroy all the residual hearing anymore. I'm not sure if those devices are available in all countries, though, because they are still quite expensive. And I don't know what the battery life is on them, but it seems like— obviously, it's longer and longer. But you also have stories of people getting explanted, you know, where the— the machinery that they have is old enough that you can't get replacement parts anymore. Oh, wow. You have to get a new one. So that's— that's going to be another surgery that's— that's quite serious. And sometimes it just doesn't work. It doesn't work, and you have it, but it's not really functional. At GallaDent, we have a lot of people with cochlear implants. The— the— the university has invested in bringing in children with cochlear implants who decided, for some reason, at 18, that, you know what, I want to go to that deaf university. So they come, they don't know sign language, and the university invests a lot of money into giving them interpreters and teaching them intensive American sign language, trying to get them up to speed. And they come in, they use the cochlear implants at the beginning, and then by the end of the semester, nobody's got their implants on anymore because why would you have your implant? Nobody's using their voice. And— and some of them become very, very good signers by the end of their four years. It's— it's— it's really amazing to watch, actually, you know?

49:47⧉ I always wonder what the parents think. The parents obviously didn't teach them to sign, and they probably thought that they were just going to head into the hearing world and be hearing people, and then all of a sudden they— they turn to GallaDent and become this deaf signer. But you see a lot of people make that— that decision at— at 18. You know, you're an adult, you decide which world you want to be part of, and— and a lot of them do gravitate towards sign language and— and our university. But— but again, does it have to be binary? No. I mean, I— I think there's a lot of people that put it on when they're off campus, and you're dealing with hearing people, it's just easier. But— Yeah, yeah, of course. But, you know, on campus, I'm always surprised, like, "Oh, you have a cochlear?" I— I meet people all the time who I didn't know had an implant because we don't— we don't speak. I mean, you know, you don't— you don't voice, and so you have no idea that they're— that they— that they use— They even have it,right? Yeah,right. You're not aware. So there's the— the cochlear. There's— are there any other kinds of devices that— Yeah, there's a— there's a— there's one called the BAHA, the bone-amplified bone. It's— it goes through conduction through— through bone. That one— I always see kids who have that, they have this band on, I assume, to sort of hold it just so they don't pull it off. But I— I know a lot less about that. We only have one child in our— in our project who has that type of hearing amplification. And then there's high-powered— Or is it— is it similar like the— like the headphones that some swimmers

51:02⧉ use and stuff? I assume it's something like that. So it sends vibrations to the bone and you can hear something like that. Right. So you're not— you don't have it in— in the ear,right? Yes, yes. And then high-powered hearing aids exist now too, so you may not even need to have a cochlear implant. You could have a very, very high-powered hearing aid. Oh, so it's like a microphone? Yeah, that's— that's inside. I mean, it's a traditional hearing aid type of thing. So those are the technologies that I'm aware of. But again, there's— there's— I'm sure there's a lot more detail that I am not aware of, and I— we don't work with that side of things. We just work with the language development once you have that implant, how your English development happens. Is there any— anything on the horizon on the— on the technology side that— that could maybe some, like, novel surgeries or something that can restore hearing to— to people, even adults that have been not— not hearing from birth? And is there any progress there? There is. There's gene therapy. So there's— there's the possibility of— so I— I said before that genetic deafness is— is— is common,right? So a lot of people are deaf for genetic reasons. And some of the more common cell mutations that— or, sorry, gene

52:14⧉ mutations that cause deafness have been identified, and they've identified a way to knock out that gene and— and— and change it so that you can have gene therapy even after the child has been born. I think we all thought that that was just science fiction and it was way, way down the road. But this year, the university convened a sort of talk series about genetic gene therapy because it's only about 20 years away, from what I understand. It's really a lot closer than we thought it was. And that brings up huge ethical questions about, okay, if we had the technology to make deafness a thing of the past,right, is that a good thing? I mean, I think a lot of people would say, "Well, yes, because now everybody will be able to hear," and that's what most of us do, so that would be a better way of doing things. But, you know, like, if you think about it from a biologist's point of view, say, you know, when I was a biologist, we talked a lot about diversity. There's plants around the world that probably hold some secret medicine that can cure whatever, and if it goes extinct, we'll never know. We never have that plant. And the more things become the same, the weaker the whole ecosystem becomes,right? So it's— it's— it's less stable if you have everything that depends on the same food, the same— the same resources, and competing for that. And humans are the same way.

53:25⧉ So if you have less linguistic diversity, if you have less diversity of types of people, period, the way of— ways of thinking, you know, deaf ways of thinking versus hearing ways of thinking versus sighted ways of thinking, blind ways of thinking, if you have everybody just being homogenous, that's— that's a certain poverty of— of— of— it— it's— I think it's a poorer version than what humans can be. And I think that, you know, GallaDent has been really trying to wrestle with the question of genetic therapy in terms of a loss of diversity. You lose deaf people, you lose all that diversity that comes with being a deaf person and— and approaching life as a deaf person. I mean, one— one could argue that it's a severe handicap. So, like, we cure other things, like people that— that can't walk or are paralyzed, and would you say the same thing? Oh, we— we— we should have, like, disabled people, or should we be able to cure them even though they've been paralyzed for 20 years? I mean, I'm not trying to be combative. I'm just— I'm just curious about— about the argumentation. Yeah. I— I think— well, two things. I mean, I think that one thing is that when you're talking about language, that's different from other things

54:35⧉ that are labeled as disability. Like, not being paralyzed or being a quadriplegic, yes, that's— that's a tragedy. And I think you would want to be able to bring people out of that, especially if they— you know, if you have a long life to live and you're a paraplegic for that— that long time, I think that— that would— that's less of an issue. But sign languages, for instance, I mean, they're— you— you— if when you share a language with someone, you share— you have these cultural overlaps. And I think that that's one of the reasons why you don't see as much of a— I've been told, anyway, that you don't see, say, in the blind community, the same kind of insistence on sharing language because they already share the same language as spoken— as hearing people do. So they share that same spoken language, and they are part of that hearing world in the same— because of the fact that they have that access to English. Deaf people, because they don't have that access to English, they have a different language. That— that is a really— that's something that binds the deaf community together, and I think it's something that stands out as being very different from English. So if you, quote-unquote,"cure" deafness, you lose that linguistic aspect, and you lose all the cultural aspects that are tied to that. So that, to me, is— it's not— I don't really think that deaf people feel disabled.

55:48⧉ If you're in a place where there is access to language, it's not— you're not disabled. You're disabled when you're in a place where there's obstacles to you accessing language because nobody else is using a language that's accessible to you,right? So the example that we gave a minute ago about going off of our campus across the road into the food court there, where most people are hearing, it's not an access issue if you have pen and paper available or you have your phone available and you can order your food. You can order your food exactly like the hearing person behind you is going to order their food. So that's not a disability. A disability is when you— you come up against a system where you need an interpreter, but you can't get one. You need sign language to learn sign language, but you can't access it. Or you need, you know, you need— those— those are things that really make you feel like you have a handicap or make you feel like you're disabled. But isn't it also true that hearing isn't only about language and— and culture, it's also about the environment? I mean, it's— it's nice to hear if a car is behind you or— or something, I don't know. So it's also— it has a lot to do with— with— with certain dangers and— and stuff like that. So it's not just— not just speech. Yeah, but I mean, you know, like, steps are easier to build than slopes, and so we used to have steps everywhere, but it was— it was a real drag for people— people in wheelchairs or people— people who— who— who don't have— who aren't

57:02⧉ ambulatory, who aren't walking. And so then we decided to have— to put in the effort to put in— and ramps everywhere, and it was extra to— to build these in and to retrofit things. But then all of a sudden, it wasn't just good for the people who were in wheelchairs. It was great for parents who were pushing their— Yes. —colletes for their kids. It was great for people pulling their little caddy. So it turns out that these things are more universally useful than just for the person. Or— or for people that— that are— have like some— some kind of either disability or— or have a hard time walking, so it's— it's easier that it's not a big step. It's easier than a step,right? Or little kids, it's easier to go up and— Little kids, yeah. Right. So it turns out that a lot of these— And the people who are pushing, like, carts or delivering goods or something. There's— yeah, it's— it's— it's— it's the benefits expand way beyond just the— the one disabled group that was maybe originally intended for this. And so those same kinds of principles of universal design— I mean, I'm sure there's many, many more that we can apply that haven't been applied yet that would make the world safer for a deaf person who's not hearing. I can tell you one that I learned about recently that I thought was really cool. There's this idea of deaf space,right? So how do you design a space that is friendly to a deaf person? Okay. And our— the building that I work in happens to be one of the first buildings that was— well, no, that's not true. GallaDent buildings have always been built with this thought of deaf space.

58:13⧉ It just wasn't called that a long time ago. But in our building, which is relatively new, it opened in 2009, let's say that, you know, you're walking with a deaf person and they're chatting in sign language and so you're looking at each other,right? You're not really looking around you, but you need to know when you're going to turn when the building ends and you're going to turn. So you're walking along the building and we have columns on the building that are all one color, and then at the end of the building it changes to a different color. So here I am talking with you and walking, and out of my peripheral vision I see the change in color. I know this is where I turn. Oh, okay, that's interesting. So— yeah. So if you design things on purpose in a way that feeds that information to a person who is using a visual language, then you have this— you— you have easier— all of a sudden it's easier to walk around campus when you're looking not where you're going, but you're looking at the person that you're talking with. And those things could be good for other people as well, you know? I mean, it's— it's— deaf people aren't the only people with peripheral vision, so hearing people also can take advantage of that. Of course, yeah. Right? And there's— so there's a lot of these things, this idea of deaf space, of designing spaces that are not— that don't throw up obstacles for deaf people, having more curved walls instead of, you know, sharp— sharp walls like this, or having open spaces where you can— with glass where you can see through. There's a lot of things that— where that benefits more than just the deaf people.

59:24⧉ And I think that, you know, if you bring those principles out into the hearing world, then maybe it's not such a dangerous place for a deaf person to be living. Or, you know, can cars have lights on them maybe that would— that would beep instead of just the— the sound of the engine, which, by the way, I don't even hear the sounds of engines anymore because there's so many electrical vehicles out there. Well, maybe in the U.S. here it's mostly. Really? I can't tell you how many times I've been walking down my own road and you turn around and there's a car that's three feet behind you and patiently been driv— you know, tailing you the whole way up the driveway because I— I— I don't hear them. They're silent. So, you know. Yes. Have you noticed how the electric cars, that they're sort of futuristic, they— they— they have this sound? Yes, which I noticed in some cars. Something from the Jetsons or something. It's so weird. Somebody said that's the sound that we want. If you have to add a sound to let people know there's a car coming, we want it from the Jetsons. Yes, that's true. That's true. So what about people that— that are adults and through an accident or illness lose their hearing? How— how does that work? So are there people like that at the— at the university or in the— in the— in the hard of hearing space? I mean, so how do they integrate? Have you had any experiences with people like that?

1:00:35⧉ How— how hard do they find it that— that something like that has befallen upon them? And so I assume they— they learn the— the sign language, so that's— that's like a must. If they're— if they're at the university, I mean. Okay. The— you know, you can— you can have an accident, lose your hearing, and— and not learn sign language. There's— there's plenty of deaf people who don't actually sign. So that— that's the category of late-deafened adults. So you've already learned language and you're an adult, and then maybe through an accident. The— the president of GallaDent, when I came to GallaDent, Ike King Jordan, he was— he was a hearing person who had a motorcycle accident, became deaf in his 20s, and learned American Sign Language. So he was our first deaf president at GallaDent. You might have heard about the protests that happened. There's a lovely movie called Deaf President Now on Apple TV that— Really? That— a documentary that— I'll have to watch it. You have to watch it. It's— it's— it's a good— Is GallaDent featured in it or? Yeah, it's— it's the— the protest that we had in— Oh, cool. In'88, where another hearing president was nominated when everyone expected that there was a deaf candidate. He was qualified. It should have been the deaf candidate, but they went with the hearing one instead, and the— the students just completely— it was really led by the students. They shut down the university.

1:01:45⧉ They marched to Capitol Hill. They demanded Deaf President Now. You know, we have— we want a deaf president. This has always been hearing people who have been presiding over this university. It's a university for deaf students. It's got lots of deaf faculty. Why are we— why— why do we always go for hearing president? And the reasoning was, well, you know, I mean, hearing people tend to have better education access and they can go to Congress and they can talk to the people in Congress and make sure it's— Yes, maybe— maybe even more politically active or— or— There are all kinds of examples. Talking to politicians, senators, and stuff like that. The lobbying going on. But I mean, I think the thing that— that really upset people too was the— the woman who had been nominated spoke about deafness in a very sort of paternalistic way. It's like, well, you know, I mean, I— I want the best for you. And she kind of sort of had the attitude of, we need to take care of deaf people, and so you need a hearing person to be taking care of deaf people. And that's— that's the traditional way of thinking about deafness, which just isn't— Yes, it's just like a disability and we need someone normal to— Yeah, we need to have that moreright side idea,right? So— but— but so after that protest, Ike King Jordan was installed as our first deaf president. He was a late signer, which means that you could tell the way he signed that he didn't grow up signing, you know?

1:02:57⧉ We were talking about accents earlier, and I remember thinking he— he— he just— we also went through a period of time when we would talk and sign at the same time. That was kind of the educational norm at the time. We don't— we don't usually talk and sign anymore, but we did at that time, and he was definitely a talker. He would talk and sign at the same time, which made his— his grammar kind of wonky and kind of strange. So you would sit there and watch these long, say, graduation presentations where he would give a— like a— a speech at graduation, and it was hard for me to understand. I— I assume it would be hard if you weren't hearing his voice and you were only watching his hands. You know, the grammar was a little bit— a little bit strange. But he was a late signer, and so I— I think it is hard to learn ASL as a second language later, but— but many people do it, and many people do it very successfully. So I— it's still— it's still— I think it's still a good way to continue to have a good ease of access linguistically to a language. And then, of course, a lot of people lose their hearing as they get older,right? So my brother— Yes, that's also a thing,right? Yes, it's a lot of people who lose their hearing as— in old age. My mother's living in a— in a continuing care community where there's 2,500 senior citizens living there, and they have an ASL class, which is popular because a lot of people have lost their hearing and they want to be able

1:04:10⧉ to sign. So I— Wow, that's interesting. Yeah, no, I was— I was very impressed by those people. One guy was 100 years old, and I asked him, "So why are you in the class?" He's like, "Well, I hear now, but you never know. I might become deaf sometime, so I better learn the sign language." Well, you're 100. You may— you made it all the way to 100 without needing it. But, you know, it's— it's— I— I wish that we had more people doing that. That would be— that would be terrific. I wish we were teaching ASL to everybody from kindergarten. If— if— you know, one of these universal design things was to work American Sign Language into the curriculum and everybody gets some, regardless of whether you're hearing or deaf or you have a deaf family member. Everybody had like a, you know, kind of like high school French. If you had high school ASL, everybody could do that level. That would be great, you know? And then when— if you did lose your hearing when you were 75, well, you'd have a start already. You'd already have some ASL. You'd know something,right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be a— a great idea, but. So how fragmented is ASL in the U.S.? I mean, we— at the beginning, we— we said there are dialects and stuff like that. Can you— can you talk about that— that a little bit? Fragmented. There are some regional differences where you have— so we have lots and lots of versions— lots and lots of variation for certain signs.

1:05:21⧉ Like birthday, you can sign birthday, birthday, birthday, birthday. I— I've heard there's something like 26 different signs for birthday that are used across the United States. And sometimes some of those will be more associated with a certain region. California seems to be known for a certain type of ASL. There are certain words that when you see them you think, "Oh, California." Like they sign computer like this or something like that. We sign computer like this. So. In the East Coast. So, you know, they come— California students come to GallaDent, they sort of, you know, they switch over slowly. Or they keep their dialect and you can— they— you can tell they're from California. So there is a little bit of that regional differences. In the southern states, because the deaf schools were segregated, you had black deaf schools and white deaf schools, so then you had a lot of differences. You had black ASL and— and what they called standard ASL that are— that are quite different. And there's more awareness of black ASL now to the point that we have a black ASL center at GallaDent University doing a lot of research on the history of black ASL and how that's different from— from the, you know, what you— what they used to call standard ASL. So that's a— that's a dialect that's been— that's been acknowledged and— and is being researched. And then there's just little— lots of little pockets. Let's say that you— you had parents from a different country, they came, they signed a certain way, and you had those

1:06:37⧉ signs, and— or you had home signs with your hearing parents that you use and you understood each other, but nobody else really understands them. But, you know, you keep those signs, you pass them on to your kids. So it's— if— I wouldn't use the word fragmented, but the variation is pretty big, both because of geographics, you know, geographic difference. Right,right. It's a huge country,right? And also like, are you from a deaf family or are you from a hearing family? Are you from a large deaf community or did you go to a deaf school or did you go to a hearing school and you didn't have many deaf people? Yeah, many moving parts. Right,right. I would imagine, yeah. And then that is a reason for— there's a high amount of variability, for sure. Right. So can you tell me about yourself? You're Taiwanese? Mm-hmm. I mean, you— you didn't— you were born in the U.S.? I was. Right. So your parents are Taiwanese or they were born in— on— In Taiwan. Yeah. So have— have you been to Taiwan recently? How often do you go? Do you even go? We do. We go about every year. So. Oh, cool. Pretty much every year. I— I was— that was part of— when I was growing up, we went probably every two or three years. It was expensive back then, but we went and we stayed for a long time. So my mother was the only one of 10 children who came to America. Everybody else stayed in Taiwan. So I had a big family in Taiwan. And my father also had a— a large family, not quite as big, and—

1:07:51⧉ and most of them stayed in Taiwan until the'80s and then they came to America. But they came from the northern part of Taiwan, so they spoke Mandarin. And I— I couldn't speak Mandarin as a child, so we actually couldn't communicate with each other until they came to America and learned English, and now we speak— we speak English to each other. But my mother's family stayed in the southern part of Taiwan, and so I— I learned Taiwanese as a child, and that was what I spoke with my family. So yes, I have a— a lot of very close ties with Taiwan. I— I identify as a Taiwanese American. It's a big part of my identity. And because the language is endangered, it's— it's not being passed on to the next generation. That was a big priority. Yes, we talked about it yesterday. How— how is that possible? Well, it's possible. It's happening— it's not just Taiwan. It's happening everywhere. You have small languages that are not written, so mostly oral. I mean, there is a way that you can write Taiwanese, but it's not standardized. It's not very widely used. It doesn't have the privilege of a— of a— it doesn't have any sort of status sort of in society. People think of it as a home language, something you speak in the family, in the kitchen, but it's not something that you speak at school. So it— when— when— when the nationalist government came to Taiwan, they— they brought Mandarin Chinese, and— and it became obligatory to speak only Mandarin in school and— and businesses

1:09:03⧉ and outside the house. So. So the official language is Mandarin. It's Mandarin. Yes, it's Mandarin. And Taiwanese only recently started being recognized as an important language, something that the schools are trying to teach now. But honestly, once the language comes to the school to teach it instead of the families, that's usually a bad sign for the language. But— but that's weird. You said a national— nationalistic— nationalist government, so wouldn't they, like the tradition, our language, and so it's weird that they would push Mandarin on everyone. How— how come? Oh, it was the Chinese Nationalist Party, so coming from China. Oh, okay, okay. Not the Taiwanese. Right,right. So they came to Taiwan and they occupied Taiwan, and they brought their language and they insisted that everyone speak— I mean, let's say it was considered seditious if you were speaking in Taiwanese. Who knows? You might be plotting to overthrow the government or something, you know? So there were— there were very tense relations between the Taiwanese who were living on the island, who were of Chinese extraction, but from hundreds of years ago. And the— the— the KMT or the Kuomintang, when they came, the Nationalist Party came from China. And that— there were massacres. There were people killed. There were people who were disappeared. My father didn't go back to Taiwan for 23 years because they revoked his citizenship for being politically active and wanting to have Taiwan be Taiwanese and not— not Chinese.

1:10:14⧉ So that— that history has played out for a long time, and it's not really— it's not just a modern issue now about, you know, now we worry about mainland China taking over Taiwan, but there was already a takeover that happened in 1947 when the— in'45 and'47 when the nationalists came and— and— and took over the island. So that battle between Mandarin and Taiwanese and— and— and the other minority language— the other languages in Taiwan, like Hakka or the indigenous languages, that's been a long battle. Taiwanese is a relatively large minority language in the sense that a large— a majority of people in Taiwan pre-1945 spoke that language already, but it has declined very quickly. So I— you know, I— I taught my kids Taiwanese. They're heritage speakers, so it's not— they don't speak like people who grew up in Taiwan, but they— they— that— that was their first language and they can speak it well. And we would walk around in Taiwan and all these people would say, "Oh, a child speaking that language? We haven't heard that in such a long time." And, you know, so we got a lot of attention for that because people just aren't doing that. Is it— is it at all similar to Mandarin? It's similar. It's— it's— I would say it's like English and German. Okay. Right? So we have plenty of English speakers who don't understand any German, but if you tell them, "Oh, look, mother, mutta,

1:11:28⧉ father, fatta," they can see those. Obviously. Hund, hound. Yeah, there's lots of words. But when you start stringing things into sentences, that's another story. Yeah, yeah. I taught— I taught all these— you know, my— my first job was teaching English to Chinese students who— who couldn't pass the oral English exam at my university. So they had to take one semester of remedial English with me. And they would always say, "Oh, but you know you're Chinese." I said, "No, no, I'm Taiwanese." Like, "No, but we're all one big family. I mean, you even speak the same language." Like, "No, actually, I don't." No, we don't. I speak Taiwanese. They're like, "Oh, well, speak Taiwanese. I'll tell you. I can understand it." And I would just say basic things, and then their faces would fall and say, "Oh, you'reright. I didn't understand any of that." Right? So they don't realize it themselves that we have a language apart, we have a culture apart, we have— it's really diverged enough that we're— we're not— we're not— this is not China. This is Taiwan. And an interesting thing is that in my father and mother's generation, if you ask people, "Are you Chinese or are you Taiwanese?" You know, a lot of people would say, "Well, we're Chinese. We're all one big China." But nowadays that's changing. Nowadays young people, if you ask them if they're Taiwanese or Chinese, they say they're Taiwanese. That's new. That's— that's— that's helpful. Yeah, they— I'm sure the— the saber rattling on China's side isn't helping anything,right? So people don't want to be— I think I saw some when I was researching a little bit, so like 80% of young

1:12:42⧉ people or something, they— they— they burden themselves. Yes, it's a high number now. Right. And that's recent. That's— that's very recent. Oh, that's very recent. They don't— they don't speak Taiwanese yet, a lot of them. But— but, you know, the identity first and the language is— and there are lots of efforts for people in Taiwan to have Taiwanese radio. There's Taiwanese television now because it's legal now to have Taiwanese television. And Taiwanese language is— is resurging— resurfacing in popular movies and in songs. So it's still holding on, and it's moving into domains that you didn't see it so much in the'90s, which is encouraging. But it was discouraging to me, for instance, that my family who speaks Taiwanese didn't pass it on to their children. So my children's generation, they don't speak Taiwanese in— in Taiwan. That's— that's disappointing. So— so you mentioned in— in 1947 it was like de facto occupied,right? Mm-hmm. Right. And so how— how has life been since then? I mean, so China sort of regards Taiwan as a renegade province. Right. So how does that reconcile with— with, I don't know, international trade, with— with relations with other countries and stuff? I know, for example, in the U.S., some basketball players or someone got into trouble saying

1:13:54⧉ something about Taiwan, and then they were— they were apologizing to the Chinese overlords. That was kind of pathetic. But— but yeah, that's— sweet basketball money in China is apparently a thing. So. Apparently. Or was it movies? I'm not even sure that much, but. I think there was both. I think there was— there was something about Mulan, one of the— one of the movies recently for Disney. They— they basically had to— yeah, I— I mean, you know, it's a big— China's a big government. It's a big country, and there's reasons that people want to have good relationships with them. So I think there's a lot of assuaging. You don't want to offend the people at the top, obviously. But I think— I mean, day-to-day life in Taiwan. So I'm told that in the very beginning, in— in the— in the late'40s and the early'50s, every time there was a new year and the— the president, President Jiang, would go up and give the address, that he would always end it with, you know, "This year we celebrate the New Year on Taiwan, but next year in China." So there was this really— this idea that they were going to go back to China. So. So how come they didn't? Well, I mean, look at Taiwan and look at China,right? China's huge. I mean, I think just practically speaking, it wasn't something that was going to happen. Maybe in the— maybe in the early years after the— the— the war between the communists and the nationalists,

1:15:04⧉ that was still a hope that they nursed. But, you know, I think gradually Taiwan just moved in its own direction. And 50 years of Japanese occupation certainly changes things too. So— so the— the— the— the mentality of the people was very different. My family talks about when they were told that the Japanese were leaving and the— the nationalist Chinese were coming. And there was a lot of rejoicing, actually. People felt kinship with people on the mainland because they had come from— their ancestors came from there. But it was a— it was a rude shock when the soldiers actually disembarked and they were, you know, they were poor. They were peasants. They didn't have shoes. They— they— they had never seen some of the technology that— that existed in Taiwan. And— and— and I always had this image of my head of all these people waving little Chinese flags and then being like, "Oh, oh dear." Oh dear. Yeah,right. "Oh, what have we gotten ourselves into,"right? And— and that— so those are the stories that— that— that I hear about in my family. Again, I'm from the south and so much more sort of anti. So what's the population of Taiwan, roughly? 250. What is it in Croatia? Croatia is 5 million? No, no, below 4. Below 4. Oh my gosh. I'm sorry. 250. So.

1:16:15⧉ 250 million? No, no, it would have to be 25 million, I think. Okay, yeah. So— so I— I looked it up. So Taiwan is like two-thirds of Croatia. That big? Two-thirds? Yeah. Okay. I mean, it's— it's— it's densely populated. It's like 370 kilometers across. So I mean, it's— it's elongated, but still it's— it's— it's not so thin. Right,right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, but very heavily densely populated on the west side of the island. The eastern side is very mountainous, so it's— it's— it's mostly the people are on the west. It's— it's densely populated, for sure. Right,right. Yeah. So how come the Chinese haven't just occupied it by force and what province? I mean, so is it like— like geopolitical? Like I— I assume the U.S. is— has— has a stake in— in. Right. Taiwan. There's a bunch of technology in Taiwan,right? Well, that's a reason why the Chinese would want to take over, I would think. Yeah. You don't want to destroy it because obviously you have— you've got lots of resources there. So, you know, bombing Taiwan to bits isn't really a great strategy because. So— so China has a lot of money in it too. I mean, it— it built it up over the years or— or. Yeah, no, I mean. What— what— what's— what's actually the relationship between China and Taiwan besides the renegade province stuff?

1:17:27⧉ Yeah. I— I— I can answer that as a— as an American looking in from the outside, but not as a person who's lived through it in Taiwan. Of course. My parents' generation felt that it was very oppressive. And so they— the— the KMT used a lot of those same sort of spy tactics, spying on your own people, sending spies to America, to the schools that had a lot of Taiwanese students to make sure that they weren't saying the wrong thing. And so there was a lot of things being reported back to Taiwan. My grandmother was harassed when she— when they found out that my father was involved in all these things. So a very oppressive country, a lot of killings and a lot of people just being taken by the police because they were saying things that were deemed unacceptable to that government,right? So not a free government. No elec— free elections till the'80s. Martial law for all those years. So it was very, very oppressive. But I— you know, that was all before I— I— I have memories of Taiwan. So now I— I don't think that the day-to-day is really marked by a fear of China invading.

1:18:21⧉ The mandatory military service went from two years to one year to six months, you know? Okay. And— and so that I think speaks to how— I mean, six months, how are you going to protect your country if— if— if you're invaded by China with— with six months of military experience? So— so I— I think that— that the— in— in general, that there hasn't been a lot of day-to-day. People don't spend a lot of time day-to-day thinking about, like, "Oh my gosh, what's going to happen?" But that was also in part because America was a pretty reliable ally. So if something would happen, you know, the American ships would suddenly show up outside of Taiwan, and that would send a message that, well, America would— would intervene if something happened. But that's— that's striking— that's shockingly not on the table anymore. I— I don't— I don't think that our current administration has any— I don't think that they are committed to protecting Taiwan in that way. And— and you do have to be careful in how you word it. So what I was mentioning to you before, the official American stance was strategic ambiguity with regards to Taiwan. So making sure that you are very, very deliberately being ambiguous so that you say to Taiwan, "Hey, we've got your back. We'll, you know, we'll— we'll— we'll send ships if anything happens." But saying to the Taiwanese, "No, we recognize them as the Republic

1:19:32⧉ of China in Taiwan." And— and we. So that's like the official. Right. Right. So, you know, one— two— two— two states. You know, basically, "We recognize one China." Just say that. But— but— but also say to the Taiwanese that we will— we will be there if— if you need us. That— that lasted all through my childhood. That was the way that things were. And so people didn't— I mean, my experience was that aside from the people who are fighting very, very hard for democratic elections and theright to use Taiwanese language and theright to— for Taiwan to be sovereign, everything pretty much just sort of went day-to-day. And we don't have embassies, but you have— you have cultural economic centers that exist in the big cities in America. That's where you go to get your passport renewed. That's where you go to get your visas. So, you know, you would sort of just like set up this parallel system. And I asked my cousin when things started to get a little bit more spicy, you know, I said, "Are you worried about— about China? About the, you know, all these military drills?" He said, "Oh, they've been holding military drills since forever. That's not new." But, you know, sometimes you have more military drills or they're closer to Taiwan. And he said, "And anyway, if we had a— if we had a war, I mean, it would be over in like two days. I mean, come on. Look at the size of China and the size of Taiwan. There's— there's just no realistic way that you can imagine without American intervention that— that— that Taiwan would be able

1:20:45⧉ to withstand that." So I don't know. Honestly speaking, I don't— I think that the reason that China didn't invade before was because of America, but I— I don't think that that's a given going forward. So it— for me, it is a scarier time. Yes. A lot of things are— are changing in the— in like the— the world politics and. Yes, that's true. So— so how is the— the government in Taiwan structured? Is it like parliament? What's it like? Yeah, you have a president and a vice president, and then you have the— the legislative yuan, so the legislative body.

1:21:17⧉ Again, I— I don't know a whole lot about— I don't have theright to vote in Taiwan. I'm not— I'm not a— a citizen. But it has quite a lot of loyal voters in the United States who have dual citizenship, like my parents, who would all fly back to Taiwan when it was voting time and vote. Mostly you would see this in the people who favor the Democratic Progressive Party. So that— that was at the time the opposition party to the— the nationalist government that had been traditionally there,right? So the— the— the Democratic Progressive Party would fly all their people in from the United States and they would all vote,right? So you can— I mean, I understand there's something similar in Croatia with sort of people coming out of the country by the bus loads or something like that,right? I hear about this too. And I mean, you know, so there's— you can look on the side of it and say, "Well, that's not fair. They're not even living in the country and they're coming in and they're voting." Or you can look at it from my parents' perspective, which was, "We left the country because it was oppressive, but we— we— we fully believe in bringing Taiwan to a place where it can be a sovereign country. And if flying into Taiwan and doing something that people look down on can bring us to that point, then— then that's what we're going to do." So they— they did that faithfully until— until my father died, you know, flying to Taiwan to vote.

1:22:21⧉ That's— that's the— it's a democracy and it's a democracy that's working. I— I've been told that there was— that Xi Jinping once said that, you know, one of his ways of— of dismissing criticism about China's human rights record is to say, you know,"You can't impose a Western-style image of democracy on China. People who are of Chinese extraction, people who speak a Chinese language, naturally prefer to be led by a strong leader. And they are happy to give up certain personal freedoms in order to obtain security." Like, that is not something that we as a people are opposed to. And you as Americans, you as Western powers who look at that and say, "Well, that's a loss of— of personal freedom. That's automatically a bad thing." You are imposing your cultural viewpoint on another culture and that's notright. And he says there— that is just the way that Chinese-speaking people are. And then there's always somebody in the audience who says, "Well, there's Taiwan, which is a Chinese-speaking population. They have a democracy." And that's always a problem,right? Because that— that doesn't fit with this picture that's being sold. That is only 25 million compared to the billion or something. That— that is true, but still, it's— I— I would think that it's— it's a problem with the narrative,right? So it would be much nicer if you could just sort of like move that out of the way and not have that problem with the narrative.

1:23:34⧉ And I— I think that. Who— who said that? Was it Thomas Jefferson? If you— if you— how does it go? Something about security. If you waive your rights for security or— or— or you— you lose your freedom and— and something like that. I— I forgot the quote, but it's— it's powerful. But yeah, no, I mean, I mean, she's— I think. And you— and you deserve neither. That's if you— if you give up your freedom for security. That'sright. Right,right,right,right. Yeah. No, but that's the—right. So the reframing is that, well, we— we offer our population something terrific, something, you know, very secure, very reliable, very dependable. But is it really? At the— yeah, that— that's the question,right? That's the question,right? For us, it isn't. But, you know, I— I— I— I believe that there is a possibility that, yes, in— in even in Taiwan, there's a— a feeling sometimes of, "Well, you know, you don't stick up. You don't— you don't— don't— don't make any noise because we're— don't shake— don't rock the boat. Let's just— let's just go straight. If— if— if we can have prosperity, if we can know that our children will— will do well, that's enough for us. We don't want to—" All these lofty ideals about— about democracy and about freedom are— are— are a little bit too theoretical for us. And, you know, we're— we're doing okay. We're doing okay the way that we are. Let's just leave things at the status quo. I think that that's a— that's a powerful feeling for a lot of people.

1:24:46⧉ My— my— my relatives in Taiwan used to say, "Oh, you know, your parents were just so much trouble. Don't get into politics. They should never get into politics. Just leave things alone." And they would tell me this as a child. And— and, you know, my parents were just so fervently— such fervent believers in a free Taiwan. But not everybody in Taiwan felt the same way that they did. I have— I have to say that that was a— that was a real— that was an interesting realization for me when I got to my, say, 20s and realized that not everybody wants what my parents want for them. Right,right. That's always— that's always the case. So is the— is the political landscape polarized there? There are ones that are— is there— is there like a strong movement to rejoin China? Or is it— is it fringe? Or is it like half the population? Or how does it work? I— I think ideologically people are— are, like you said, more and more identifying themselves as Taiwanese, especially young— among the young people. Among the older people, I mean, the— the— the KMT exists still— still in the— in— in Taiwan. So you still have the nationalist party. What's that? The nationalist party that was originally in power. And— but there— and then there was a break off. There was called a new party because the nationalists were not committed enough to being rejoined with China. So, you know, because they were also of the mind was, "Hey, this is working pretty well. Let's just leave things the way that it is.

1:25:58⧉ Taiwan is prospering. You know, we'll make all theright overtures to China. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but not do anything in the— in the near future." And then there was a— you know, a split off that wanted to be more— they were more in a hurry to re— to unify with China. So I think that there are people who want that. And it's certainly for political reasons and for business reasons. There have been cross-economic— there's been cross-straight economy for a long time now. So, you know, you can buy and sell. People go to China and set up factories and all that's been going on for quite some time now. And there's tourists coming into Taiwan or there— there had been quite a lot of Chinese tourists in Taiwan, which was, you know, had mixed success. So there— there were thawing of relations. It wasn't like they were on a— at a standoff all the time. So all of this at the same time that China's still claiming that there's a civil war on. But, you know, there were— there were— there were more and more relations across the straits. I think that it's gotten worse now. But again, judging from my very limited sample of my family, they don't seem to be overly concerned about it. It's just— it's always been that way. I think it's hard to get upset. Yeah. I bet— yes, yes. It's been for quite a while. Right. Right.

1:27:01⧉ So tell me, how did you find love with a Croatian man? I know it's a bit of a jump in the topic, but. That's okay. Yeah. My mother wanted me to— she— she was very disappointed when we got— when we were getting— we were getting married because he doesn't speak Taiwanese. And so to— to make the segue from Taiwan to China, she said, "But I won't be able to speak my heart language with him. He'll be like my son-in-law, like a son, and I won't be able to speak my heart language." I said, "Well, you know, I mean, there's not that many people who speak your heart language, Ma." Yes. And definitely not eligible males in the United States that I'm likely to meet who speak your heart language. So she— she got around it. And actually, Ma and my husband, he can— he can do some. He— he said he would learn Taiwanese with the children and he learned enough that he can say funny things in Taiwanese. It makes my mother laugh every time. Yeah. She— she likes that. We went to graduate school together. Oh, so he— he studied in the— in the US? He studied in the US,right? So that's the big— the big melting pot is always in graduate school. You meet people from all over the world and— and people couple up and then you have all these interesting combinations of languages and cultures. He actually was the first person that I talked to when I arrived at graduate school. Because I— I mentioned to you that my job was to teach the graduate students who couldn't pass the English exam.

1:28:15⧉ So they couldn't become teaching assistants because their English wasn't intelligible enough. So they would come to me. So because of that, they invited me to the orientation that all the international students had two weeks before the semester started to meet them and sort of get to know them. And then some of them would come to be in my class once the fall semester started. So we sat together and we all had our name tags and I was sitting next to Ma and actually in the— the first day of— of appoint— the first program. And you were supposed to turn to your partner and introduce yourself. So I turned to him and I saw Pichler and I thought, "He's German. I can practice my German. I haven't spoken German in years and years, you know." So I— I was excited about this language opportunity. And I found out later. So you fell in love and. No, no. I was just excited as a language partner and I thought he was German. And he looked at my tag and he looked at my face. He thought, "Oh, no. Another one of those Chinese students. I'm not going to understand anything she says." So we both had a— had pretty deep misunderstandings at the first meeting. But he turned out not to be German. I was very disappointed when I found out he was Croatian because I thought, "Croatian? I— I don't know Cro— who speaks Croatian?" And— and he was surprised that I could speak English so well. So that was— yeah. Yeah, that was— that was our first meeting and.

1:29:27⧉ So where in the US did you grow up, actually? I— I grew up on an island in Maine called Mount Desert Island. Okay. If you've ever heard of Acadia National Park, that's. No. Okay. Well, it's a lovely park, but it's very small. So it's— it's on the island. So I grew up there in New England— in New England. But— and my— the graduate school was in Connecticut, which is also in New England. So. So love blossomed. And then I wanted to talk to you about Croatia. So when was the first time you came to our lovely country? 1997. Okay. Yes. So was it Šibenik or Zagreb or. Zagreb. Just Zagreb the first few times. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So— so his parents lived in Zagreb. So that's. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we came— I think it was in the summer and I traveled here myself. Ma and was already here and I— I missed my plane. So I— I had to call. It was kind of scary calling my future in-law. I mean, I don't— I don't think we were in— yes, we were engaged by then. So I— I knew that— or we were dating at least. So I— I knew that they might be my future family. And I had learned just enough Croatian to— my mother-in-law answered the phone and I said, "Dobar dan. Ja sam Debbie." And she— and she replied, "Oh, Debbie." And— and then I had to say that I had

1:30:38⧉ missed my plane and I wasn't sure how to say that. So I think I said something like, you know, "My plane left." I don't really remember how I said it, but I— I struggled through it. I tried really, really hard. And then it turns out my in-laws both speak incredible English. So it really wasn't necessary. Yes. I was about to say as far as I know, they speak awesome English. Yeah. Yeah. They— they— they lived in Kuwait and then. They did. Well, they— they had a. A lot of places. Sabbatical in Colorado in the'70— in the'70s. So that's where Ma and his— that's where the family really spoke English the most was in Connecticut. Oh,right,right. Yeah. So how do you compare Zagreb 1997 and. And now? And today. Yeah.

1:31:15⧉ Wow. It's much more multicultural now than it used to be. And— and there's especially— I'm— I have a special eye for Asian things. You know, there's Korean restaurants in— in. Yeah. In— and there's a Korean supermarket. There's— people are drinking bubble tea on the streets. It's really wild when I see that. Oh, that's funny. Bubble tea is Taiwanese, by the way. It's not— Really? I don't even know what it is. It's— it's tea with milk and then it has these little tapioca pearls in it. You know, tapioca balls that you suck up through a very big straw to— to make room for the tapioca. It's sweetened. It's— you know, it's— it's junk food. But it's— it's really tasty junk food. I'll have to try it. Yes, you should try it. They're— they're all over Zagreb now. You can find bubble tea anywhere. Yeah. I— I— I'm really amazed by that because when I came in'97, it was clearly— it was a happening to see an Asian person walking down the street. And— and I got a lot of attention for that. So— which was not welcome. So I'm happy that it's not like that anymore. Nobody— nobody looks at me twice and they're not surprised if I try to speak Croatian. They speak Croatian. They don't switch to English with me anymore like they used to. So that's nice.

1:32:15⧉ Yeah, it's much more— it's much more— much more metropolitan, much more international. So when was your first visit to— to Šibenik? 2000. So that was, I think, my third visit to Croatia. So you came to the— to the house here or. We— we came to the house here, but we spent a week on Žirije, I think. So we— I was only here for a very short time before we took the ferry to Žirije. And I learned that the Croatian idea of a good vacation is sitting by the beach. Definitely. All day. All day, every day. And it's ironic that I don't swim because I grew up on an island, but that's kind of the reason we don't swim. That's kind of weird. Yeah. Yeah, but it's freezing cold. The— the ocean is 10 degrees centigrade,right? Oh, wow. Really? Only 10? Yes. Wow. Yes. So you— you go in and— and your whole body goes— nobody swims in that water. It's just not— it's for working and fishing and lobstering, but not— not for swimming. That makes sense. Yeah. Right. It's not— it's not really comfortable. No. So I— I— I can swim to save my life if I really have to, but that's about it. It's— it's not pleasurable to me. So. Do you ever go to pools or something? No. No, not even that. No.

1:33:27⧉ So it's funny. I think Šibenik in the 2000 has changed even more dramatically than— than Zagreb from— from that era. What— what do you think about that? Well, actually, I'd like to ask you that because all I've noticed is that there's an influx of many more international tourists and they've really prettied up the— the downtown area. I mean, it's a lovely downtown, but I think it was always probably lovely. It was always those beautiful stone cobbled streets. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's always the case,right? Yeah. It's always been lovely. So— but what— what do you think has changed the most from your hometown between 2000 and 2026? Well— well, tourism happened. Yeah. So the funny thing about Šibenik is it was like a heavily industrialized town. So we had like two very big major factories during the— the— the socialist era. And so they all went bankrupt and— and dissolved after the— after the war. So Šibenik was kind of left in this limbo. So we— of course, we had tourists in— in Šibenik, but not so much in Šibenik. So it was like the Primožt and the outside villages and— and Split, of course. And so Šibenik was very poor in that department. Okay. So— so we didn't even have a— have a beach.

1:34:40⧉ There was— the— the sewage went out like. Oh, boy. In— in the middle of, if you know the— the Mula Krka, the— the big pier in— in the— in the old part of town. So you could actually see the— the— the raw sewage just bubbling up. Oh, man. That's so wow. Yes. Yes. You probably didn't. No, I never saw that. You never saw that. I mean, you wouldn't see actual raw sewage, but it was. You could smell it,right? I mean. No, it wasn't even. I think— I think it was— it was filtered a little bit. So it wasn't really raw— raw, but still you— you don't. It was dumping out. Yes. You don't want to swim there. So I— I remember as a kid. So there was this boat. Have you been to Yadria? Uh-huh. Yeah. So as a kid, you would go to the— to the pier and you'd go to a boat to Yadria and there— there you swim. So every once in a while, I'd see— we'd see some tourists, someone jumping in. Trying to swim. Jumping in there. They— they don't know. They see a sea of— yeah, yeah. So— so we were all, "Oh, oh my God." It was— it was traumatic to see and they were having such a lovely time. So that was kind of crazy. So— so yeah. So the— the sewage actually got displaced. So it was— it's no longer going into the— into the bay.

1:35:52⧉ Yeah. So it's going somewhere outside. I don't know— I don't know exactly where, but. And so yeah, for— for all my childhood, for example, when you would walk down the beach, the— the— the pier, you'd never see the— the bottom of the— so it was always like totally murky, like opaque. Yeah. And you couldn't see anything. So I was always wondering as a kid, "What— what exactly is down there?" It was so mysterious. So when— when the sewage finally stopped going there, so it took like— it was amazingly fast to clear. Like, I don't know, 10 days or something. No way. Yes. You could already see the bottom. It was beautiful. So I remember it was 2000, maybe'11,'12, or something like that, that they finally, you know, upgraded the— the systems and— and it was beautiful. I mean, I— I couldn't— couldn't get enough of it. I would go down to the— to the pier and I would just look at the— look at the bottom. But you know Croatia has now the reputation of having such clear seas, you know, that you can see straight down to the bottom. Not— yes. Yes. But this was like a Šibenik. Šibenik's problem. Yeah. Okay. Problem. Yeah. Yeah. So— so. Okay. So when— when that happened, they— then there's a— now there's a city beach

1:37:05⧉ called Banj. Banj. Very nice. I— I like that you can walk there from here. That's nice. Yes. Yes. It's— it's like maybe 2 kilometers or less. So yeah. So we finally had a proper beach. And then the— the tourists started flowing in more heavily. Not just because of the beach, but I think it's a conglomeration of— of various factors. And Croatia in general started to skyrocket and end up on CNN's top 10. I don't know. Oh, yes. Always. Yeah. Like visits where everyone has to go. Yeah. So— so yeah. That's— Šibenik changed a lot and the— the— the property— property prices rose dramatically. I remember in the— in the beginning of 2000, you could buy real estate for nothing. It's really for nothing. But now it's, I don't know, the fourth most expensive city to buy an apartment or house in— in the— in the country. Maybe not fourth, but it's— it's high up there. Were people leaving the city to go to Zagreb or leaving the city? Yeah. Yeah. So they were leaving. A lot of— there was no jobs here. Very little— no higher education back then. So yeah. Most— most people's like trajectory was, you know, go

1:38:19⧉ to faculty, go to college in Zagreb, and then you stay in Zagreb and that's pretty much it. Or you go to Rijeka or Split. And as similar as you. You— you meet someone, you start a family, you get a job because there's practically no jobs here. Right. Right. Yeah. So a lot of people left and that's something we still feel to this day. Wow. Yeah. Do you ever— I mean, so you didn't have the big tourist boom. You know, during the'80s, Croatia was also really big. People go to Dubrovnik and then there's— there's direct flights. Of course. But you didn't— there were no tourists coming to Šibenik during the'80s because it was. There probably was. There's still the old city center. Everything was. Right. Was the same, but not as massive. And if you wanted to go to the beach, which I think most tourists actually come here for— for that. Right. I mean, they're not coming here over the— over the winter,right? Right. So they'd have to go somewhere else. And— but I think tourists visited Šibenik, but it's not, I think, to— to the point of— of what it's like now. So I remember when— when the boom happened, I remember it was— it took me a while to— to get used to it because now during the summer, you—

1:39:30⧉ you would go through— through the— through the old streets and it was like the walking dead. Oh my God, what— what's happening? There's so many people. It was— it took me a while to— to get used to it. I mean, I— I don't mind the tourists. I mean. Really? I— I don't have anything with— with tourism. That's not my job. But still, I think there are— I think there are— there are good thing to— for— for— for businesses and— and for— for the mentality in general. I don't know. That's. So you don't resent the tourism? I mean, I come from a heavily touristed area too, and in the summers we'd just be invaded by millions of people and it— it really takes a toll on— on the island. And you can't find parking. There's a line for everything. Everything's expensive. Yes. So that was— there are some negatives that I— I grew up feeling like, "Oh my gosh, when are they going to go away? When— when is it going to be September they'll all go away?" You know. Well, personally, I don't resent it as much, but there's— there's downsides. Yeah. And— and a lot of the— a lot of the jobs and a lot of the economy is dependent on them. So it's kind of— a lot of people have the love-hate relationship with it. I don't know. There's like a saying, "Oh, I wish they didn't even come here. They're just virus the money and." Yeah.

1:40:42⧉ I mean, it's— it's a joke, but. Right. Yeah. It's a sentiment. I understand. So— but— so you come to Šibenik and you don't swim anywhere. That's— that's outrageous, I have to say. Yeah. I know. I— I— I wish I had known, like, you know, there's those things that you think to yourself. If you could talk to your younger self, what were the top five things that you would tell yourself, you know, to make your life easier? And— and for me, definitely one of the things was, "Come on, just make an effort. It really does bother people that you don't swim or that you— you know, you don't— you're not interested in the water. Show some interest." So I— I've learned to do that now. I was talking to you today that, you know, we go swimming every day and I dutifully put on my— my bathing suit and I go and everybody goes in the water and I go in the water like everybody else. I swim across the pool. Like a brave little soldier. Yeah. Every time it's like, "Do it, do it, do it, do it." Swim a few laps. I can see people looking at me through the side of the— and then I come out and— and that's acceptable. So. So how much time is it? Like three minutes? No. No, no, no. Today it was— it was probably about 20 minutes. Oh, that's okay. I mean, I don't swim the whole time. I have terrible upper body strength. So I kind of have to find a place where I can stand on my tippy toes and just bob up and down in the water a little bit. And it's— it is beautiful. And if it's hot like today, you know, it's— you cool off. So. So where did you go to the beach today?

1:41:55⧉ So yesterday we went to Pekel's Martinska, I guess. And then today we went to— what is it called? It's the place where there used to be a Yugoslav army installation. Ah, Minska. Minska. Yes. That's where we went today. That's beautiful too. Yeah. It is— it is beautiful. And— and the last— we went there last year for the first time. And so, you know, there's all these interpretive little signs. Like there's the toilet that's— that has the best view in the world. So it's all for the centuries that weren't allowed to even leave their posts when they were going to the toilet. So you're stillright there looking at— you're looking at the fort and then looking at— at the water. Ah, you're talking about the St. Nicholas fort on— on the seaside. Yes. But— but on— on this side, on the— on the beach side, you have all these— these— these posts where they explain things about the fort. Okay. Okay. And the history and— so I— I walked around there. While everybody was swimming and I'd finished my 20 minutes, I walked around and I looked at the signs and I— I— I read a little bit about the history. So that's— it's— it's very nicely done. Though I— actually, that's one thing that I would say. It's the way that they've redone a lot of the old historic spaces and made them so dynamic and so, you know, beautiful. And— and— and translations in English so my kids can access, you know, what— what— what the history is. And— and that's— they've done a really nice job.

1:43:05⧉ If you're going to change the country to make it accessible to tourists, I think Croatia did a nice job of it. I think they did a nice job with their historical sites, the history sites. They're— they're top notch. So yeah. So those— we— we go there a lot. They do like the islands. And so, you know, taking the ferry or taking— I guess you take a ferry to Podrić or you just take a boat to— to Podrić? It's a boat. But yeah. It's a boat. Right. It's whatever. Right. And Žirija. And Zlata. So it's, you know, a lot of these islands my husband's very fond of and he enjoys them. And. Yeah. The islands are— are awesome. The islands are pretty— pretty amazing. Yes. Yes. Even the— the— the sea is even clearer there and. It's incredible. It's very beautiful. And we went to Silba one year. Oh, really? Which was— that was a long ride. Yes. Yes. I've been there a couple of years. You have? Yes. Yeah. And when— when you get there, like, there's not a lot of— hardly any cars,right? Because you're really not supposed to have cars. I mean, we saw a couple, but— but really not. Oh, I don't— I don't think you— you're allowed to drive there, but. Yeah. That's what I thought too. But I'm pretty sure we— anyway. So, you know, lots of bikes still. And— and that was— that was charming. I really enjoyed that. And I. Yes. It's— it's quite different when there's no automobiles. Yeah. Yeah. It's very different. And you do feel a lot more isolated than— than, say, the islands that are closer to the— you know, to the mainland. Yeah. Yeah. You're cut off. So if— if it's like very windy and they just say, "Well, there's no ferry now." No, no ferry

1:44:20⧉ today. Right. Actually, I have a funny story with— with Žirija. I went to— went to it last year with my son. So we went there with a ferry and we— we took the bikes. So we biked around and— and a friend is sending me like a message from a local news portal. "Wow, the ferry broke down in Šibenik. So how are you going to get back?" "Oh, come on. They're going to fix it." Whatever. So— so the ferry was leaving, I don't know, at 8:00 p.m. So we get there to the— to the port around 7:45. "Oh crap, I don't see the ferry. This is not good. It's supposed to be here already." Right. Right. Right. "Supposed to be here for hours now." And— and so I talked to the locals."Yeah, yeah. No, the— the ramp broke or something and no ferry." "What do you mean no ferry? There's no replacement boat?""Yeah. So when's the next boat leaving?" "Well, you have one tomorrow at 7:00 a.m. or something." "Oh my God. What am I— I'm with my 11-year-old kid here. We have bikes. No— no clothes. Nothing." I mean. No toothbrush,right? Nothing. Right. I— I mean, we had stuff for— for swimming and— and food and water and stuff like that for biking.

1:45:31⧉ And so— so— and it was like the high season. It was beginning of August. So what are we going to do now? So I— there's some local— some— one of the locals, since I'm sort of notable now, I'm— I'm— I won't say I'm a celebrity, but someone recognized me, of course. So— so shout out to— to Marijan. He really did me a good favor. So he called, I don't know, he dialed like 30 numbers. "Does anyone have any place for— for me and the kid to— to." Really? "No, no. Everyone is full. Everyone is full." And then finally he found someone and they— they charged us like, I don't know,€20 or something. It was symbolic, really. Yeah. I mean, since we— we were kind of locals, we— we just got stranded on the island. Right. Right. And we— we shared an apartment with— with some stranger from there. I mean, there must have been a lot of people if it was the height of the tourist season who were in the same city. Yeah. That was quite problematic. So yeah. So— so we— we slept the night there and at 6:00 a.m. or whatever we. They fixed the ferry. No, no, no. They— no, the— the ferry was out actually for days. Oh, really? But there's a catamaran that. Oh, yes. Does the routes. But for the ferry can take on bikes. So I was kind of— kind of worried. "Oh, are they going to give me trouble now because I'm with the bikes and you're not really supposed to bring them in?"

1:46:46⧉ So— so we came. They didn't even say anything."Yeah, yeah. Just leave the bikes wherever." And okay. So that's. That's— oh, that's a good adventure. Yeah. It was. But I was like totally unprepared. "Oh my God, what am I going to do now? We're going to go sleep on the street like hobos or something." That would be a different adventure. Yes. Yeah. I— I called a friend to ask if maybe— I know she's renting. Yeah, but we're full. Right. She tried also a couple of numbers. No, no. It was. Oh, wow. Gee. Yeah. But nothing special. Right. Well, I'm— I'm glad you found a bed to sleep in. That's— that's— Yeah. Yeah. That— that was cool. So— so how— how often do you come to Croatia? Is it like a yearly thing or. It's mostly a yearly thing. Sometimes in the beginning when I first had my son, our first child, I brought— I came, I think, twice that year or maybe even three times. And my mother-in-law was thrilled. She said, you know, she was so sad about being a baka udaljeni and she said, "Well, this is not so bad if you come every three or four months." But that was— that was rare because, you know, there were conferences in Zagreb. There— there— I would make a stop. Oh, okay. It's easier and easier to fly through Zagreb to fly, you know, to wherever you have the conference in Europe and then make a short flight to— to Zagreb. It was— it was pretty well connected.

1:47:57⧉ So sometimes I come more than once a year, but pretty much once a year. It was important for us for the kids to speak Croatian, you know, since they don't get a lot of Croatian in America. So they would— they would— they would get come here and speak with baka and dida. And how are they with— with Croatian? They— they— they— my son speaks more than my daughter does. He's— but he's also six years older and he— he came and spent a— a couple of summers just by himself here with the family where he was hearing a lot more Croatian and he had friends. I think the friends make a big difference. Yeah. I bet. So especially here in Šibenik, you have friends and then they give you some pocket money and then like, "Go, go." And then you're just like walking around town with your friends all day and you come home for dinner and it was great. He had never done that. You know, you can't do that where we live in America. It was just— so he just felt this flush of— of independence at the age of 11. Yeah. And it was very exciting. And there's this festival. He went to the festival a few— of course. Couple of years and— and that there he had to speak Croatian. And so that— that helped him a lot. My daughter doesn't have the same benefit of having a friend group here. She also— I think she's never come by herself. She's come alone with Luka before, my son, but never by herself. So it's— it's— it's harder. But she still speaks good, you know, they had Taiwanese and Croatian. They have to learn. So she— she— she still holds on to— to Taiwanese.

1:49:09⧉ So I think— I mean, Croatia is a very safe country. Yes. I believe. What— what do you think? What do you— what do you say? Yeah. I think it's very safe. Yeah. I think you can get harassed. I— you know, I've been harassed before, but that's different from being attacked. Yeah. Yeah. You won't get mugged so— so easily. Not as many guns. Not as many, you know, there's— yeah, there's. Yeah. I think that's— that's a big selling point of— of Croatia. Yeah. And— and maybe for women at night you can. Yeah. I— I've always felt very safe here. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. So how long are you staying now? You're leaving tomorrow already? Oh, yeah. I'm leaving tomorrow. So it was only three or— it was about three or four days. You were also like a business trip or? Yeah. It was. That— that conference I mentioned in Amsterdam, the— the. Ah,right. Right. Sign language conference. So you came around here. Yeah. Yeah. No. I— I knew that I couldn't come. My family's coming in August. My husband always says that you have to wait until the— the sea has warmed up enough, you know, and by August it's warm. No, that's not true. It was already warm in June. It was already with the temperatures that you have. Yeah. I— I don't think it applies anymore, but that used to be his excuse. But traditionally they would come in August. My— my son has his birthday in August. My mother-in-law has her birthday in August, you know, so it's a festive time. So they will come when I'm back working again. And I was happy that I could tack this on to at least get to Croatia this year.

1:50:22⧉ I have— I— I have a— a mother with dementia, so I'm— I'm not able to leave her for very long. Otherwise, I would— I would probably come back or— or stay longer. But it's— it's not— not at the stage of my liferight now where I can spend longer away from— from home. Right. So tell me, back to the US, how— how excited are you about the second Trump presidency? Are you— are you loving it? No, I'm not loving it. You're not loving it. It's— it's a— it's a dystopian sort of reality that we're living in our everyday life. Yeah. I live in Washington, DC, so, you know, that— you really can't get away from things. But it gives you a unique insight on— on— on how the country is changing. Would you say it's— it's become more polarized than— than ever before? Oh, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I— I understand that. So again, I came from New England and in New England, I'm sure there were— there were a mix of political leanings when I was growing up, but people did things together. You know, you fished together, you built houses together, you— you— you farmed together, you— you helped each other out as neighbors and nobody— nobody talked about what party you voted for. And even if you suspected that— that your neighbors voted for another party, you were neighbors. And that's what you thought of first, that I know this person, I know their family, I— I know about them.

1:51:36⧉ They're a real three-dimensional person to me, not just, you know, a— a— a Democrat or Republican. And I think now, I think we're much more likely to— to see you. Well, what— who did you vote for? And then I— I decide that— that I know about you. Oh, you voted for Trump, you must be this kind of person. Or, oh, you voted for the, you know, a Democratic candidate, you must be like this kind of person. And then you just don't— you just make sure that you only hang out with people who think the same way you do. You have a lot of internet friends that all think the same way that you do. Right. So we're just a lot more polarized and a lot more segregated than we used to be of our own accord. So we— we've done that to ourselves. And if you try to count how many people you have who are of the other political party, of the other persuasion, like you find that you have fewer and fewer people that you talk to that— that don't vote the same way that you do. So that's— that's really sad. We don't really have a lot of opportunities for exchanging with each other in a civil way anymore. And I think that that's pretty obvious to people outside the United States too when they look at the kind of discourse that we— political discourse that we haveright now in America. Yes. Yes. It's funny when you— when you look at political discourse now when— when politicians amongst themselves argue. Right. And, for example, I saw, was it Ronald Reagan with— with his like

1:52:52⧉ opponent? They— they were— they were debating, arguing on TV. But I mean, it's— it's like a whole different world. They were— they were civil. They were, you know, they— they struggled with— not struggled, I mean, they— they debated with— with facts and— and they were— they were kind of courteous. Right. But now it's like a— a free-for-all. I have to say it's— it's— it's— I mean, on both sides, it's— I guess it kind of gets you worked up about it. And it's— it's the whole— it's the whole atmosphere that's— that's spilled over to the politicians. And I'm not sure if the politicians started it or— or are they just like riding the wave of— of how things are or. I'm trying to remember. I mean, it's very recent history, so I should be able to remember. But it does seem like there was suddenly a— a— a— a— I mean, Bush Jr. looks great now. Right. Go compare to Trump. And— and— and people were— were complaining about, "Oh, he's— no, he's not." I was complaining. Yes. Now I'm like, "Oh, I— I— bring him back." Bring him back. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, I— okay. So— so in the universities, universities tend to be left-leaning in the United States anyway, certainly, especially

1:54:04⧉ our university. We are all about disability and about diversity rights because we're a deaf university. So we are definitely very— we like inclusivity. We like all those things. I think that— that the— the discourse has become more polarized on both sides though. So like being in a university environment, I can certainly tell you that if you have a Trump banner up in your dorm room or something or on your window, that it's probably going to draw a lot of negative attention. People aren't— it's not like people who are progressive are more interested in having conversations with people who are Trump supporters than Trump supporters are with intellectuals. Right. So you hear a lot of bombasts from people who are in theright wing saying like, "Oh, colleges are a— a hotbed of all these— these— these— these socialist ideas, these— these extremist ideas, and, you know, we should— we should do away with— with they— they should have less money because they're influencing our children in a wrong way." You hear a lot about that. But there's also, you know, a general disdain for people in the sort of intellectual circles, for anybody who thinks differently than you do too. So I mean, it goes both ways. And we were talking about this last night. I don't think that Trump winning the election came out of nowhere. I mean, I don't think it was— I think sometimes people treat it as if it was this really strange phenomenon that

1:55:15⧉ just surged onto the national scene and we don't know where it came from. I mean, it came from years and years and years and years and years of half of the population feeling very disenfranchised and feeling like they didn't have a say in— in the way that American politics was working or the way that American culture. I think a lot of people see this as a cultural war, you know, that— that, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, you're changing the culture of my country and I have no— no say in this." So it is changing. I mean, communities change. Right. Societies change. That's normal. But I— I think that maybe the changes on our national level were moving so fast that there was a whole portion of the— of the population that resented it deeply. I think that we could have gotten there if we had all sort of communicated more and— and worked together. But I can tell you that I wasn't aware that that many people felt that way. I— I assumed that my whole country was sort of more or less of the same mind. We were happy that, you know, we had elected Obama. He was a great president. I— I think that I— I— I believed that everyone was more or less happy with the direction the country was going in. And so for me, it was surprising to find that, "Oh, no, actually half the country feels otherwise. Half the country feels like they weren't listened to and they were belittled and they were told that they were stupid and that they were backwards." And, you know, that breeds a lot of resentment.

1:56:26⧉ And then the pendulum swings the other way and, oh, all of a sudden we have a president like Trump who is saying these things that makes that side of the country very, very, very happy. And that is anathema to the other side. You know, I hear these things and I think, "Oh, I can't believe you can say that." Yes. It's— it's especially a weird thing if you're like— if you're surrounded with— with people of your same persuasion, like— like Democrats, left-leaning, and all your colleagues are like that, all your friends, all your students and stuff. And you kind of forget there's— there's a lot more going on than just your— your circle. So even before the— the famous echo chambers of social media, that was always in a way present. So. Yeah. So it— it— it might come as a shock. Oh, well, half the country doesn't really think the way I think because I was. Right. Yeah. Living somewhere else. And it's— it's a weird thing. Oh, yeah. I'll never forget this one quote. So the— the when Biden was elected, I— I— I studiously refused to look at the polls and look at the numbers as they were counting the votes because I just didn't— I just didn't want to know. I, you know, I remember the day that it happened. It takes a— it takes a day to count everything. Right. So I was working on my computer. I was doing other things. And— and then they called it. I— I could hear the fireworks going off down the road in our neighborhood and people just started— I could hear cheering

1:57:39⧉ outside. I mean, music and erupted. It was incredible. Okay. So Biden won. Yes. So Biden won. I was like, "No way." I— I was sure that Trump was going to win. So I was— I was very surprised. And then— and then came all the television stories. You know, this one woman, she said, "I just don't believe it. From where I stand, I can look down the street, every single house has a Trump sign in front of their building. There's no way that Biden won this election because look around you, nobody has a Biden sign in front of their house." And I was thinking like, "Well, where do you live?" Because where I live, nobody has a Trump sign out front of their house. Right. And that's what made me realize, yeah, these people think that the— the election was stolen because they really think that as far as my eye can see, I only see— I only see Trump signs. I mean, there are people who live in pockets of the country that look different from my pocket of the country enough that they think they can't even imagine how there could be a neighborhood where all the signs are— are— are, you know, for Biden. So I thought, "Wow, that's, you know, that's— that's problematic. If we are defining the whole country based on how far I can see from my back— my front porch." Yes. But that's the attitude. And it's— and it's— I think it's very hard in human nature to even comprehend. Even comprehend. The— the number like what is it? 300— 300 million or something people.

1:58:50⧉ That's— that's a humongous number. Right. You can't— you can't wrapp your mind. Right. Really about— about it. So how come— how did this polarization come to be? How come there's no like third party of some kind? Yeah. How come we've never been able to make a viable third party? I don't know. I mean, wouldn't it be cool that there's also another contender? So it's not so me against you. Yeah. I mean, the European politics are more like that. So you— you have like a parliament and there's. Yeah. A bunch of these parties. And I— I believe it's— it's— I mean, in reality, something else is going on. But— but at least on paper, I think it's— it's great that there are— there's more than two major. Yeah. Parties. That's— that's like, I don't know, five. And then they— they do coalitions and they're also— but they're also like left-leaning andright-leaning and stuff like that. So the only one I know of is the Libertarian Party in the US, but it's, I don't know, a couple of percent or something. Yeah. I know you have— I mean, we have the other parties. We have— we have the— the Green Party. We have the— you know, we have the— the Communist Party. We have— so there— there are— there are all the different parties. And I— I used to vote green because I— I lived in Connecticut.

2:00:03⧉ It was a state that was reliably blue. So I— I didn't feel like I was putting anybody in jeopardy by voting green because I really wanted to see a third party. You know, I really— I— I also used to think that this was the solution. America needs to have more than just two choices. But my— my father pointed out to me, he said,"Yeah, but you know, those coalition governments that they have in Europe, do they ever get anything done? I mean, is it really better to have a coalition where now instead of having a struggle during the election year between this party and this party, you just bring it into the everyday life as a struggle? Because in Congress, if you have divided Congress, for instance, then you're always struggling among yourselves." And— and he— he— he— he was the first person that I talked to who said who wasn't really that enthusiastic about the idea. And it doesn't seem to work. I— we just haven't been able to get that third party going in all these years. You— you do kind of wonder if it was something that was viable for us, then why didn't it ever— it just has never really taken in all these years, these 250 years that we've been in existence. It's just been these two parties. So the Democratic Party is actually younger than the Republican Party. Right. I— I— so my daughter does American history and the— the— of course, the names of the, you know, what we used to call the Republican Party, they— they— those names have changed a lot.

2:01:13⧉ And I— I think that. Really? Weren't they like GOP from— from forever? The Republicans, I mean. No, I don't think they were GOP from forever. So initially during. The grand old party. No. Right. So that's what—right. That's what the GOP is now. But the Republic— I mean, what— what you would identify as a Republican Party, you know, people go back and they're like, "Well, you know, Lincoln must have been a Democrat because he— he." Yeah. No, he wasn't. Right. Right. But— butright. So that— so the— the things that— I mean, that's what I'm saying. The labels that we have now and you— yes. For a similar label, they— they— they won't hold the same. I don't think it's— I don't think in America it's a question about the age of the parties and— and— and. No, it's just a— it's a peculiarity, I guess. Yeah. It is a peculiarity. And why— and why an elephant and a— and a donkey? I— I still don't understand. Yeah. Why red and why blue. Why— yeah. I don't know. That— that— I— I should probably look that up. I don't know.

2:02:02⧉ Yeah. I— I— so what was your— your original question was why we're so polarized and why we can't talk to each other and why it's— it's continued this way? Well, I— I think it's because we— we— we— you don't notice that you're becoming more and more distant. And it's not until the— the valley between you is pretty— the chasm is pretty wide that suddenly you look up and you're like, "Oh, you're completely different from me. I— I don't have anything in common with you." So by then it's— it's really difficult then to reach across and to— to find something in common. So we probably need some intentional encouragement in that direction. And I have seen— I have seen that there's about 200 of these groups that are popping up across the United States that intentionally invite people from different political backgrounds to come and have civil conversation just to— just to— to— to engage in that practice of civil discourse. Maybe— maybe like rehumanize people. Yeah. That you don't see it as, "Oh, he's a Democrat. I hate him." Right. Or vice versa or whatever. Right. Or to see that maybe I— I— I voted for a different candidate from you, but I— I— I feel very strongly about the environment and you do too. And that's someplace where we both— where we actually align very closely. So you don't have to be— you know, I don't have to assume that you're— you have completely opposite beliefs from me

2:03:13⧉ just because you voted opposite from me, that you actually overlap a lot. And to focus on those overlaps and, like you said, to see people as— as a— as a three-dimensional human who has lots of different facets, not just Republican versus Democratic. I think if we did that, then it wouldn't matter if we had the two parties because you— you know, you would— you would still be able to— to talk to each other in a way that we're not doingright now. So how do you feel about America's current like foreign policy? It's really embarrassing. It's— it's embarrassing. Yeah. It's really— it's— it's— it's— it's. For example, the— the— the Iran debacle. Yeah. It's just— it's just awful. I will— I will say that I— I— I suffer from— and I— I feel guilty about this, but I do have a little bit of schadenfreude, you know, when I— when I see things go turning badly because I'm like,"Yep, I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. Knew it was going to work." But it— it's— it's— it's terrible that now we've managed to raise prices for everybody, you know, and— and— and it's— it hasn't made anything better. And I don't understand any— why he's— why this is still— how this could be popular in America. You know, this was a president that ran on the promise of no more foreign interventions. Yeah. No more wars. That's why a lot of MAGA are— are even renouncing him and. Maybe.

2:04:24⧉ Maybe. It doesn't look like it. I mean, I— you know, I was— I was on the National Mall week before I came to Europe and it was— it was before the 4th of July. So you know that we have America 250 was the name of the organization that was supposed to be planning the 250th anniversary. And that was— that was planned 10 years ago. So that was in place. But then Trump came and set up this thing called Freedom 250, which sounds very similar. So a lot of us got mixed up and thought it was the same thing. But no, the Freedom 250 was definitely a White House thing and America 250 was a bipartisan congressional thing. And so there was this crazy fight between the two. And in the— in the end, Freedom 250 won out. And that's why so much of that programming that you saw, the wrestling on the White House lawn and the, you know, the. Wrestling on the White House lawn. That's— that stuff is Freedom 250. How's the ballroom going in the White House? Yeah. The ballroom. So that's Freedom 250. Right. It's not America 250. America 250 is happening in the museums. It's happening in Los Angeles. It's happening all. So that's been very confusing for Americans as we're like, "Wait, wait, wait. Should I— should I go to this programming or is it going to look like I'm just supporting? You know, what— what— what is this?" I— I— I feel like it's— it's really disheartening and it's really— it's embarrassing. It's distressing.

2:05:33⧉ You— you do kind of lose hope sometimes. And my husband got Croatian citizenship for the children because— because, you know, the idea now among a lot of us as well, if things continue to go this way, you know, like maybe we just go to another country for a short time or— or— or permanently. So we— we have all the— you know, we have all the paperwork ready if that— if that happens. And I was surprised to find how many people are suddenly discovering their Irish citizenship. You know, you— you qualify for Irish citizenship through your— your grandma or something. And people are— are doing that now, which is sad because then if— if everybody really does leave, I'm not sure where that leaves the country if you have everybody who disagrees with what's going on leaving the country. That's— that's unsettling. Well, I mean, hundreds of millions can't really leave and— and won't. It's just. That's true. That's true. So where— where like us liberal population actually— actually leaves. But. Yeah. But. Yeah. So but— but then the question becomes, when is it like horrible enough to— I mean, you— you— you have to ask, "Okay, so is it really that horrible or is it the— the— the media and the social media stuff?" And I— I can't really tell from afar. So that's my question to you.

2:06:44⧉ Maybe if you put aside all the— all the rivalries and the— the humanizing and stuff, I mean, how's the job market? How's the— how's the safety? Has that got— gotten any worse? And what— how— how has your life really in a tangible way gotten worse or is it just like the— the screaming of the politicians and the media? And I mean, is the— is the average person actually any way worse off or I mean, the numbers suggest that everyone has a lot of money? I mean, a lot of money. There's— there's a lot of debt going on. We can go into that too. And so what— what do you think? I think the job market is not good. So I— I think that kids who are graduating now, especially looking for jobs, it's— it's not good. And I think that the— the cost of living is going up no matter what Trump says. It is going up. And— and you definitely feel that. Inflation and everything. Right. Inflation going up. I think that the— the sense of— I can tell you that from a university standpoint, you know, universities depend a lot on foreign students coming in and not just for money, but also just for like we were talking about before, this diversity of ideas, this sort of like very innovative

2:07:58⧉ environment where you have people from different backgrounds, different experiences. And we are having a very, very hard time bringing anybody into the States for students coming into the United States. And I— I think— I think that's going to be a long-term effect that we don't feel so acutelyright now. We're starting to feel it, but I think it's going to be in the future much more acute. My— my parents' generation, my husband, you know, everyone came to America for an education because that's the place where you came. That was— that's— that's great. You're going to get a great education. You have access to resources. As we cut our science budgets and we cut our grant money to universities and we cut all of these things and we make it harder and harder for— for— for immigrants to come, America's not going to be the place anymore that people go to when they want to seek a higher education. All of that brain power that was coming into the United States for these— for these last all these decades, I think, is going to go elsewhere. And part of me is not upset about that. Like, you know, we were taught American exceptionalism when I was growing up because we were exceptional. We were a special country. We were— we were the ones that were out there safeguarding the world for everyone. And, you know, I— I think a lot of us really believed that on some level because we grew up in that era. But as you get older, you're like, "Well, why should America be exceptional?" You know, why— you know, why not— why not let— there's lots of

2:09:13⧉ exceptional countries and— and this idea that America is somehow on a different level than other countries. I think the argumentation goes because it's not going to be another fancy Western culture. It's going to be like Russia or China. Do you really want— do you really want that? Yeah. So maybe for me personally, I'll take the Americans. And I don't know. A lot of people won't agree with me, but. Right. Right. And of course, America has its bunch of— bunch of problems as— as— as every other state. But I still think it's preferable to— to the Eastern Bloc. That— that— yeah. That may be. But I— I— I don't see— I don't see that trend reversing itself anytime soon. I mean, look, we— the— theice raids that we had in— in our small neighborhoods in— in— in mostly in blue states, they've set up, you know, we have a system now in our state where you can call in when you seeice officials someplace and it goes to a centralized board where people can get at that— that time that information in real time so that people can warn people. I mean, the way that those deportations were happening, the way that those arrests were happening. Yeah. That— that was appalling. Right. That's not something you— that you would ever think that you would see on American soil. And yet that's— there doesn't seem to be an appetite to stop that. I— I— I don't really understand why. I really have a hard time understanding how if you are against immigration and we did have a problem with immigration and it has been a problem and Trump— under the Trump administration it has, you

2:10:28⧉ know, the borders have— have sealed quite a lot. But even if you were happy with that, how can you be happy with the way that theice raids were happening? So I— I don't think that we're— we've made ourselves a welcoming place for people to come for refugees or for higher education either. And the— the— the— the money being cut, so the cut— the— the cutting of funding for all sorts of basic research, not just in the hard sciences, but also in— in the social sciences and in the humanities, that— that's not going to win us any more students either. That's— that's really going to be impoverishing on an intellectual level the country. So the— the American leadership, the American innovation that we have, it's got to— it's going to take a hit, you know, because of the— the policies that we're setting up. I— I'm not— again, I'm not sure why that doesn't seem to strike people as problematic. I think it's super, super problematic. But to answer your question about as an average person, do you think that life has changed? I— I'm in a privileged position where I don't feel that rocking as much because I have a job and I have American citizenship. I was born here. Even if I look different from the majority of Americans, you know, I— I'm not menaced in the way that somebody who's an immigrant or a child of an immigrant or in a, you know, in a some other precarious

2:11:42⧉ situation that they deal with. The healthcare is going to shoot up now. So— so just this year they're— they're expecting a lot of people to lose healthcare because Congress didn't renew the funding that would have brought in lots of subsidies to keep healthcare costs low. And I'm— I'm sure you have opinions about the American healthcare system. It's quite different from this Croatian healthcare system. So that's another big impact that I think your average American will not feel until a little bit later. But if you ask us, I think the— the impacts are going to be much, much bigger. Right now, I'll be honest with you, I don't feel a huge impact in my position, but that's because I'm not— I'm not, you know, a recent immigrant or I'm not— I'm not in— in those targeted groups. Yeah. As for the healthcare, I know Americans like look with envy to the way the European is— is set up, but still there's— there's problems. For example, in Croatia. So when you are like have a sore throat or it's like something minor, you go to the doctor. They— they do what they have to do. You don't pay anything. I mean, you get— you get is it 15 or 16% from your gross salary goes. So it's not really free. Right. Okay. But— but still.

2:12:52⧉ And okay, for the— for the— for those kind of minor thing, it's— it's cool. It's okay. But— but when something serious, so— so you have like maybe you have like some kind of horrible cancer or something. Yeah, sure. We will be able to look at you in, oh, come back in 15 months. Oh, wow. What the heck do you mean 15 months? So then you go to private. You have alternatives. So that's kind of funny. You have the free healthcare and when push comes to shove, so to speak, you still go to the private clinic because you wait a couple of days or— or I don't know, weeks maybe instead of months and months and months and you're totally upset about it. I may have a horrible disease and— and a lot of the times you need to catch it early to even have a chance of treating it and— and so on. So I think it's a— it's a complicated conversation. It's not like so it's a very simplistic way to see, oh, they have free healthcare. It's great. I mean, it comes with its own problems. And— and since— since you— you take from everyone's salary and it's like grossly inefficient and— and huge and bloated and all

2:14:03⧉ sort of bureaucratic problems and. Right. And corruption and— and stuff like that. So— so the— the— the American healthcare system, which is, I mean, I'm— I'm not even sure if there is like healthcare system. So you're— so what? You're supposed to buy your own insurance and just. If you're lucky, you're job. Pay it monthly. Right. How— how does that work? Yeah. So— so in my case, the university offers me healthcare and so I— I buy it through the university and it's— it's— it's affordable in that— in that sense. And it's just taken out of my paycheck. So again, you don't— you don't. So how much is it like? $400 or less or more? I mean, what— what's the ballpark? Percentage? Is it percentage or is it like a lump sum or— or do you negotiate with the— with the insurance companies or? No. So you— you pay a premium and so you'll have several different— different options that you choose from. You have high options that pay for a lot more than you have low options where you pay very little on a monthly premium, but then you, of course, get less percentage coverage. So if you— if I mean, I— I remember and you have children, so then you have a family plan. So there's all different variables that you can consider. But that— that option of having the option to choose is thanks

2:15:15⧉ to the fact that I work for an employer that offers those. So if you're not employed, then you don't have that opportunity. Or if you're a student, so a lot of our students are adults,right? So they're— they're living on their own. They don't have their parents' insurance anymore. But now they also don't have their own insurance and the university will offer them a very, very pared down, not a good deal option for insurance. But the better thing would be for them to buy their own, but they don't have money yet because they're students. So that— that problem starts at a very young age. If you don't have a job, it's very hard to get a decent choices and options for insurance.

2:15:47⧉ I was pregnant with my second child in— in Croatia. So I— I did notice what you just disc— what you just discussed. I needed to go see a doctor just to make sure to have a checkup, make sure the baby was good. But instead of going to a regular doctor, you know, I— the family had a new somebody who knew somebody or like there was someone that the family knew and that's why I went to go see and we paid separately for that. And I thought, well, wait a minute, isn't this, you know, socialized? That's when I learned about the. Yeah. But if you want to see the doctor you want to see, then you need to pay for them because that's not going to be who you get if you go through. Or if you have like connections or you— so you call someone up. Everybody knows somebody, you know? That's— that's the same thing. But if you don't, then the. Then you're up a creek without a paddle. Right. Right. So I— I did— I did experience that firsthand. That was interesting. But yeah, I'm not saying that, you know, we would want Croatia's system. I just— I just think that the system that we've had that where you had— we were trying to make sure everybody had insurance, but there were people who were offended by the fact that you were going to decide for them. They needed to. If I don't want insurance, nobody should make me buy insurance. I want to, you know, I don't want to pay insurance. Okay. So, you know, that— that— that is a possibility. You can— you can— you can go without insurance if you want to. But if you want it, it really isn't— it's not affordable and it's going to be less affordable in the coming year.

2:16:57⧉ And I think that's when you're going to hear maybe more people complaining about now I feel an impact on my daily life because I have to choose to pay for my medication or pay for food, you know, like I— I can't do both. Right. Right. It's a hard choice. Yeah. So I wanted to talk about the— the student loan crisis. I— I mentioned Dave Ramsey yesterday when we were talking. So that's— that's one of his major points. So that when was it? Was it Nixon or someone— someone one of the presidents? Doesn't even really matter. So the— the government was covering the— what's the word? Not subsidizing, but. Loaning or— or. No, no, no. They— they were vouching for, so to speak. So but long story short, everyone that was 18 and finished high school could get like indefinite loans. So then that— that pretty much caused so since now you could get a loan very easily. It's just like you signed up to a college. Here's $200,000, I don't know, in four years. Maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit. So— so that— that created a problem where you could get a lot of money

2:18:12⧉ easily when you're 18 and you're dumb and you're— you don't know anything. Oh, I'm going to pay it off, whatever. And then that caused the— the— the colleges. Oh, wow. There's a lot of money going on. I mean, they— they don't care. The— the— the government vouches for it. And so the— the rates went up. I went— I saw like graphs and just— just goes— goes uphill. And then people finish. They— they get their college degree and they have, I don't know, $100,000 in student loan debt that's not bankruptable that you can't have to pay it off and you have, I don't know, maybe. And— and the— the added sting that you didn't have to pay off anything. So now when you're done, well, suddenly now you have, I don't know, $2,000 installments per month or whatever the number is. And— and— and the yearly like the rate is, I don't know, 5 or 6%. So. Yeah. So a lot of people end up financially pretty much destroyed. Right. And they're just starting off and even— even worse off if the— if the degree is not really marketable and— and it's something that's not really you can get a good job at.

2:19:22⧉ So a lot of people even with— with basic jobs, they can barely keep up with the. So— so what do you think about that? Has that caused more problems than it solved? Oh, yeah. No. I mean, you know, when we were growing up, the— the idea was you liked a certain amount of debt, that this was what you— that was a financially responsible thing to do was to carry a certain amount of debt so that you could sort of, you know, buy your house. But of course, you're going to have a mortgage. Or the credit rating. Right. Right. Right. So but the— as far as college debt goes or tuition debt, I mean, that's— that's a ball in a chain that the— that the kids inherit— inherit six months after they graduate and you have a small grace period, but then you have to start paying back your— your loans,right?

2:20:01⧉ Yeah. I don't know. I— I have family who— who so tuition now, let's say that you go to a nice school, a school that's out of your state, it's going to be $60,000 a year,right? So $60,000 and then times four and that's just your tuition. So then you've also got housing, which is very expensive. No books. Not so much. Everything's— everything's PDFs now and you have a lot of ebooks. But— but you're— you're living. I mean, you know, we were paying something. My— my— my son towards the end was living in those apartments that are not on campus, but just off campus. And you have four people sharing one apartment and each person is paying like, you know, $1,500 a month. Oh, wow. Right? And you're just— you're just sharing two bathrooms and a kitchen and but there's four people living there. So it's— it's a very lucrative business for— for— for real estate is to have these college apartments that look nice on the outside. And so it's a lot of money to go to four years of college. And then like you said, you come out, job market's not so greatright now. You— you're not going to get a job, but now you have these hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt that you have to start paying. Yeah. And you have 30 years to do it, you know, so I think 30 years is probably pretty standard. And if you can't do it, then you have to refinance. So now you have it for longer. And like you said, you— you're carrying this debt from the— from day— from the day that you— you know, you step out into

2:21:13⧉ the adult world, so to speak, and you're working. And that's assuming that you get a job,right? So that's— that's a huge problem. And I don't teach undergraduates that much. I work mostly with graduate students, but— and so they're all working adults and they're all just dealing with this— this problem. Drowning in debt. Yeah. Drowning in debt. And you can't pay for tuition, but if you don't pay for tuition, you can't finish your degree, then you definitely won't get a job,right? So it's— it's— it's really a vicious circle. But there's like so the aforementioned Dave Ramsey recommends going to less fancy like state colleges, like something nearby. Maybe you can drive from— from your parents' house or maybe get a job to— to somehow just it's takes responsibility and choosing modestly. If you— I mean, if you come from a rich family, yeah, sure, go to Ivy League or whatever. But if you— if you don't have the money, it's also— it's a good idea to get a degree in something marketable, maybe, I don't know, whatever it is these days. Yeah. What would that be? Computer science or. Well, computer science now, coders are getting replaced, you know, with— with AI. I mean, that there's— we're looking for AI-proof jobs too. The jobs that aren't going to evolve, that aren't going to be.

2:22:26⧉ But maybe, I don't know, maybe trade schools will become a thing. Yeah. Plumbers and stuff. HVAC. HVAC. That's— that's— I heard that that's a really big one now. No, that's true. So— so for the longest time, your ticket to sort of middle class great living was to get your college degree and get a job and then you were golden,right? Yes. That was like the— the societal contract. That was the contract. Do that and you'll be fine. That'sright. And so then we had this proliferation of colleges more and more and more and it made it easier for you to access a college education. And I— I think we probably have hit the point where, well, colleges are closing and they're closing in not so great circumstances, you know, where they— they closed suddenly. Their students didn't even know that they were in— in danger of being closed down. We've sort of like hit the point where there's more colleges out there than there are students who want to go and it's expensive to run a college. I understand that. We've also run— hit the point where we're producing, say, more PhDs in linguistics than can be absorbed by the market because there just isn't a big market for doctorates in linguistics,right? I mean, who are we fooling? We're— we're very useful people, but we can't do everything. So— so that's— that's a problem on both ends. And our— our university has definitely been feeling the pinch and I'm sure that's— that's all over too.

2:23:38⧉ So as you said, one of the results of that is you start seeing more of these interesting trade school kind of ideas at an earlier age. So my daughter's in high school now and we are thinking about colleges and talking with other parents about colleges. And more and more you start hearing about community colleges. And those are the colleges that are two-year programs in your local area. They're small, they're inexpensive, and they only offer those two years. But a lot of students will take those two years and then transfer to a bigger school to finish and they get the degree from the bigger school, but they only have to pay two years of tuition versus four years of tuition. So that's one smart way of doing things. My— in my daughter's case, her high school has an agreement with the community college that she can take some high school classes in her last year and then she can take a couple college classes. So she could potentially have fewer years of college tuition to pay. So that's another way of doing it as well. And then like you said, going to a state school will— will save a lot. My son finished college this— this May and he had five years, so one more than the usual, but he went to our state school and so that saved us definitely a lot of money compared to. So he was living at home? No, no. We— we— we. Oh, it was still far away. We made the agreement that he could still stay in the super expensive— no, it was 15 minutes away, but.

2:24:50⧉ Oh, wow. Yes. But that's. It's quite a privilege. But that was— yeah. You know, he wanted to go far away and he said, "I don't want to go to college in my backyard. I've been in Maryland my whole life. I— I don't want to stay here." And then we said, "Please, please consider it. You can— you can live off campus. We will— we will give you that. You don't have to live at home." So he lived off— he lived— I mean, you can live out of the house. You can live at school. So he did that and he came home for the weekends and— and after a month, he's saying he said, "Ma, you'reright. It— it doesn't feel like my backyard. Everything still feels new. It still feels like a new adventure." So that— that worked out really well for him. And I— I think that if you're lucky enough to have a good state school, that's a no-brainer. You know, you get a great education and you— you pay so much less than you would at another— another a designer school or an out-of-state school. So I think that that will probably be more kids doing that now. And— and trade schools are up. You can go to a trade school now. My— there's a trade schoolright next to my hus— my— my son's high school where you could learn to be a mechanic or you could learn to be a dental hygienist or you could learn to be, you know, and then you go straight into apprenticeship after— after you finish high school and— and you— you do a trade. And HVAC is— is a very, very hot topicright now that people are— Literally, yeah.

2:26:02⧉ It literally is. Yes or cool, depending on how you look at it. And— and so, you know, lots of heat pumps and lots of people who are servicing them. So that's— that's a shift from— from what it was when I was in college and my parents were in college. But we're going to have to do that to— to survive. But small colleges, it's a bad— it's a brutal time to be a small college and try to— everyone's fighting for the same few students. It's. Yeah. The— the people look down on— on the— on the trades like you don't want your child to be a plumber. I don't think as much as anymore because it really is hard to find a job and that college degree just doesn't. And I think— I mean, me personally, I think that's— that's— that's a great thing. Yeah. For example, of course, you're going to be working for someone else, but then later on you can— you can open up your own business and you can take as much jobs as you want. Yeah. And you can maybe have your own employees and. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. You can— you can make a very, very, very decent living off of it and have some freedoms and but yeah, it's manual job. You're going to be in the— in the sewers or whatever, but you know, it's. I— I can tell you that when I was little, I think we still had that attitude of like, "Ooh, manual labor." You know, the whole blue color versus white color thing was a very big deal. I really feel like that shifted and people now say, "Hey, plumber." I had to wait— I had to wait

2:27:17⧉ three weeks to get a plumber, you know, like they're really in demand. That's— that's a good job, actually. I think that that's— I— I don't think that there's the same disdain that people had in previous generations for manual labor. Yeah. I think that's shifted here too. Yeah. It was also before here, even in the— in the previous system, college is everything. If you're into manual labor, it's not so good. Yeah. But I think that's— that's also changing here too. Yeah. And especially when you can open up your own business someday. I mean, it's not a great prospect to be working for someone else like on a fixed paycheck. Yeah. Yeah. But opening up your own. Or there's also the alternative when your shift is done, you go do side hustle. So yeah, that's— and the— the plumbers, the HVAC, they're— they're always in demand. Yes. Exactly. So it's— it's the same here. When I need someone to do something in my apartment, oh my God, it's. It's a long wait. It's always— it's a long wait. Or even if— or and then you have the— the problems, you get a number. So yeah, yeah, I'll come. Sure, sure. And then he doesn't come or he makes these excuses. Then you find someone else and then it's. So there's still a market for— for— for these things for sure because people. Yes. They're in demand.

2:28:28⧉ Yeah. Yes. Yes. And they can turn down jobs and so it's like an infinite supply of customers. Right. And then that reflects, of course, how much you have to pay them. And but yeah, that's— that's the open market. That's— that's the way it works. Yeah. No. I— I told my daughter, I'm like, you know. For better or for worse. You— you have two— two PhD parents, but I'm— I'm not going to insist that you— you— you definitely you do not have to go to graduate school the way that we did. If you don't want to go to college, that's actually not as horrible to me as it— it doesn't sound horrible to me like it maybe would have even five, ten years ago. So, you know, we're open to lots of different opportunities, different options. And— and that's— that's— I— I— I wouldn't— I wouldn't have seen myself saying that ten years ago, but I— I definitely feel that way now. So. Right.

2:29:10⧉ So, Deborah, I think this is the longest podcast I've ever done. Oh, really? I— I see your notes. It's very impressive. I'm— I'm sorry that I didn't come more prepared with numbers. I'm a terrible numbers person. You'll probably look fact check later and be like,"25 million. There's 250 million in Taiwan. What if she's off by a factor of ten?" Yeah. So what was your PhD in? Linguistics. Oh, linguistics. Linguistics. Yeah. Sign language linguistics. Yeah. Sign linguistics. So when was this? Was it a long time ago or? Yeah. It was— it was in 2000. And then I worked for— I had one postdoc working on Croatian sign language, actually, in— at Purdue University, middle of the United States. That was my only time I ever lived outside the East Coast. It was interesting. Culturally very different. People came up to me all the time and said,"Your English is so good." I— I never hear people say that to me in— in the East Coast. So I was— I was really shocked by that. But it was— but it was nice. And then— and then I came to GallaDAT and have been working there ever since. So. So maybe for the last topic that's hot now, AI and. Oh gosh. And the hearing impaired. So how does that work? Is there any— so it take— it's taking away coding jobs, et cetera. Yeah. What about sign language? We— we talked about a bit yesterday.

2:30:23⧉ Is it able to— to produce like a person doing the— the sign language to— or— or not yet? Can it even read sign language? First of all, deaf, not hearing impaired. Sorry. Deaf. That's okay. Actually, I thought deaf was kind of offensive, but it's not. No, hearing impaired. Because, you know, impaired— hearing impaired implies that you're impaired somehow, whereas deaf is just deaf. You're just— just deaf. No. But I heard, is it okay to say blind, for example? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I— I'm not part of the— the— the blind community. I know. Yeah. But we have a lot of deaf-blind students. So that— that is actually a common thing in our— in our— among our students too, to have deaf-blind individuals and they do use the word blind. So deaf-blind or— or just deaf.

2:31:05⧉ Yes and no. So that— the AI is a big topic and people are in sign languages and so they're starting to have conferences talking about. Yeah. It's a big topic everywhere. It's a big topic everywhere. But the whole idea, you know, you probably know about people spend an enormous amount of time trying to design signing gloves, for instance. Gloves that you can put on and then the— then it can sort of like translate what you're signing into text. Huh, into text. Okay. Right. So there— there's— for some reason, there's a big fascination with this idea of a glove that deaf people could wear and then they would have a monitor that would just sort of output or— or— or voice what they were saying.

2:31:39⧉ You know, sign languages are more than just your hands. Sign language is your face. You have a lot of intonation on your face. So if you just cut off the face and you have the hands, you're still missing something. So there's not been a lot of enthusiasm about that. But signing avatars. So let's say that you have information in text in English and you want to produce it in sign language. I mean, we have seen some pretty impressive signing avatars where. What do you mean by avatar? So you might— you might just see a— a— a figure. For instance, the— the— the deaf church in China. You're not supposed to have churches in China,right? I mean, there are— there are state-sponsored churches. So deaf churches are underground churches and they— they spread things through video. So they had the Bible in Chinese sign language and it's spread through video. So it's somebody signing the store— the— the— the Bible. Those— if you have an actual signer signing, now people, the government knows what you look like and you're— you've just put yourself in danger. So they have to use an avatar, which is a computer-generated face, an AI-generated face that signs in place of the actual person. The actual person is wearing, say, one of those suits that has the. Motion capture or whatever. Okay. Motion capture. But then you— the technology is good enough now that you can superimpose an avatar. So a— a fake face, a fake body in place of the signer's body and then— then the person's identity

2:32:54⧉ won't be revealed,right? So I— I was watching recently at— at our church, we had a— we— we had a missionary come and show us these Chinese Bible excerpts that they have and it's incredible. I have to say, it's really amazing how lifelike that signing looks. I— I mean, I'm not a Chinese sign language signer, but I know what sign language is supposed to look like and wow, it's— it's really impressive. Our own university is also at the forefront. We have lots of— we have several— several labs who are working on motion capture to produce beautiful books for deaf children that are signed instead of just— just in English. So you can do— there— there is some amazing computerized signing out there. AI though, translating, I— I— I have not been very impressed with my— my experiences so far. So I've had people take videos from me that I made, feed it through ChatGPT, and then come out with an English translation. And what I was saying, you know, it was a product placement. So I was talking about using a product in my classroom and about how I liked it because it was making it easier for my students to produce sign language answers to questions that I asked them. And everything is in sign language. I sign the question, they get it on their phone, they just click one button, they sign their answer. If they don't like it, they can click again.

2:34:05⧉ So I was talking about this. ChatGPT sent me— sent them the transcript that said, "How did you feel before you used our product?" I didn't feel like I was heard. I was struggling. The world couldn't hear my voice and see who I really was. Now. But— but what— what would they feed into ChatGPT? Like a video file. My— my— my video, what I was signing. And I was signing about my classroom and. But maybe ChatGPT is too generic for that. I'm— I'm sure there— are there any like specialty products where you can feed video into something that's actually trained on it? Yes. Yes. And— and then you get better results, I'm sure. But the— the problem is still a problem of awareness. So people think, well, sign language, you know, it's all the same and ChatGPT can do it,right? So you're— you're— you're— you're getting a lot of people who are making these assumptions and wow, it is— it is— it's not— it's definitely not at the level where it can do anything like that. It— it was— yeah, it was pretty bad. So in the— in the words of one of my coworkers, "I am not concerned for the interpreters of America quite yet." For yet— for now,right? Yeah. It's a while. You know. But— but it's going in strides and maybe— maybe it will improve. I'm sure it will. I am sure it will improve. And there are definitely efforts within the deaf community to— to feed good information into— into.

2:35:18⧉ Yes. A good like training set. Right. Because you have to have, you know, garbage in, garbage out,right? So you need to make sure that you're training it on— on good— good samples. And there are efforts that we've seen out there where people are crowdsourcing, "Send us your signing." If it's— if it's academic signing or it's casual signing or it's poetic signing, whatever, send it to us so we can feed this in and build a really, really good system. I— I think people have mixed feelings about that still, like we do for any AI, but— but there are definitely efforts that are happening and they're happening within the deaf community, which I trust more than some outside person who just has this idea that they want to help deaf people, but they don't know anything about how sign languages work or how the deaf community works and then they want to, you know, produce this thing. That's— that's a disconnect that— that costs— that I think is problematic. But yeah, talk to me again in— in ten— five— five years maybe and I'll have a different. Yeah. Maybe I— I believe it will be quite a different answer. But— but who knows? We'll see. Yeah. Well, Deborah, it was very nice to meet you. Thank you for this conversation. Thank you. It was nice to meet you too. It was one of my better ones. Oh, I'm— I'm— I'm glad to have given you fodder.

2:36:19⧉ So enjoy Croatia. Thank you. For the rest of your stay. I hope we'll— we'll meet again. Yes. I hope so too. It's nice you're— you're in the neighborhood, so you're close by. Yeah. Yeah. Eto, ljudi moji, to bi bilo sve. Inače, Deborah priča i hrvatski. To smo malo zaboravili reći. U redu. Evo, ako možeš pozdraviti publiku za kraj. Pozdrav svima. Ja govorim hrvatski, ali ne tako dobro. Mislim, to bi bilo da bolje govorim. I jednog dana hoću bolje govoriti hrvatski. Odlično je. Eto, ljudi, zapratite, subscribeajte i sve ostalo.Ćao. Bok.Ćao. Bok.